Holmgang and Foresight still.... Meh ? How I would do it

[Kitru]

Asking for more duration is going to cost you in the long run, remember that HG is on a 7 min cd not 3. 4 sec less duration for 4 min less cd seems fair.

The issue isn't the relative uptimes. The issue is that HG is immunity to all damage whereas Holmgang is simply "cannot die". For survivability purposes, HG provides *way* more than Holmgang does. Since it provides a similar but inferior effect, it's entirely justifiable for the duration of the survivability benefit to be substantially higher.

That's just to clarify that HG does not prevent knock back.

For the anti-knockback utility, PLD has Tempered Will. It doesn't matter if HG doesn't prevent knockback because PLD has a completely separate CD that provides the benefit. Holmgang attempts to incorporate the function of 3 separate PLD abilities: Spirits Within (silence compared to pull/bind), Hallowed Ground (immune to all damage compared to cannot die), and Tempered Will (immune to forced movement). In all of these cases, the relevant PLD ability is better than what Holmgang provides and, because they're all highly discrete functions, the fact that they're distributed across multiple abilities makes them even better. On top of all of this, it Holmgang also comes with a debuff attached and requires a nearby target (which is a big problem if you want to use it as a survivability CD against a ranged attack or attack that renders the boss untargetable). It's universally worse than the similar capability that PLD gets: Tempered Will lasts 10 seconds but Holmgang only 6, HG reduces all damage taken to 0 while Holmgang just prevents you from dying, and Spirits Within applies the utility effect every 30 seconds while Holmgang applies it every 3 minutes.

Like I said before, Holmgang tries to do too much. If I could have my way, I would get rid of the self bind and split it up into 3 separate abilities that are actually designed to provide the desired function without interfering with anything else you might need to do. Either that or pulling off certain portions and giving them to some other ability, such as putting the "unkillable" portion on Unchained and the "immune to knockback" on Berserk or ToB (or even Foresight, as part of the WAR trait), leaving Holmgang as a pull/bind ability exclusively (which would probably mean extending the range and reducing the duration).

[Marxam]

Holmgang is fine imo.

You shouldn't be able to move. You are invincible for 6 seconds...it needs restrictions.

As opposed to Hallowed ground where you are immune for 10 seconds and you can move? If they just removed the lock down mechanic and turned it into a tether that allows you to stay close to an enemy regardless of them moving then it would be ok. 6 seconds is good imo when you consider the cd, its just that lock down really kills it for me.

[Zfz]

True, and it has. But in most cases, because of the short duration; Holmgang is more likely to give a healer a heart attack. Ive seen more panics than Benediction/Lustrates during Holmgang.

Indeed. I've only seen Holmgang+Benediction happen once. Probably 80% of the time it's death after Holmgang. The remaining 18% of the time ends up just rooting me and the big heals strike me the moment I activate Holmgang. :3

[ispano]

Holmgang is frustrating when you look at fights like titan extreme. I would never use it in that fight. Ironically it doesn't work during landslide even though you are bound in place...but don't worry, Pally's Hallowed Ground prevents pushback.

That being said, fights like Ultima Holmgang saved me a few times, I think the duration could use an increase, it leaves almost zero room for error.

Hallowed likely (never tried) prevents the push since it negates the damage completely, like Manawall does for BLM. Paladins can also use Tempered Will to negate Landslide and Upheaval, quite useful for some tank swaps on Titan EX. Though the damage still hits you.

[Imapooonu]

As opposed to Hallowed ground where you are immune for 10 seconds and you can move? If they just removed the lock down mechanic and turned it into a tether that allows you to stay close to an enemy regardless of them moving then it would be ok. 6 seconds is good imo when you consider the cd, its just that lock down really kills it for me.

It's my understanding that Hallowed Ground is buggy with it's start up animation and "impervious to 'most' damage" thing. I don't have a paladin so idk for sure.

I do know though that Holmgang is guaranteed to work and has been responsible for a couple "saves" for me personally.

It was completely useless before, but now I get some mileage out of it. I'm content with that.

[kukurumei]

If you're pro enough with the healers, Holmgang is great to charge that LB meter. Critical state heals count as "fine play" and will raise that LB like no tomorrow. Risky business, but it's way shorter then invinc....err hallow ground. Give and take.

You 2 Holmgang for one hollow.

[LukeyP666]

Before 2.1, the only time I ever used Holmgang was in WP on the Flan Boss, where once it aggro'd the Healer, I'd use Holmgang and bind the boss in place to allow the Healer to get out of it's circular cleave attack.

I may not be the most experienced Warrior on here, but since 2.1, Holmgang has saved my arse a load of times, with Cad being the most notable. I have it macro'd to alert the party, as someone previously suggested, and when that Macro goes off, my Healers are familiar enough with my play style to throw some big numbers my way.

The self-bind thing is the biggest problem, as most of the previous posters have all agreed. I liked Kitru's idea of you binding yourself to the target, and being able to pull them along behind you as you run away. No particular instances where this might be beneficial immediately spring to mind, but it'd sure beat being bound in place having to eat everything being thrown at you.

Alternatively, a distance-based tether might also work, where you can still move and be knocked back, but only by a certain distance away from the target.

And I totally agree on Foresight being very, very meh. Again, I'm with it giving a boost to Parry. It may not be a massive difference in the long run, but at least you'd be able to see the tangible benefits on the screen as the numbers roll down, saying that you were parrying a lot more damage than you usually would.

[Kitru]

I have it macro'd to alert the party, as someone previously suggested, and when that Macro goes off, my Healers are familiar enough with my play style to throw some big numbers my way.

I have warning macros set up for Convalescence, Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, and Holmgang which announce the activation to the party (along with a comment like "Big Adloqs on me" with Convalescence or "I can't die" with Holmgang) as well as when the ability falls off. My healers have remarked that it makes it a lot easier to use their abilities efficiently/effectively because they don't have to watch my buff bars like a hawk (nor do they really need to learn what they look like). I've seen a steep drop off in overhealing and panic since I put them together.

[ChestyBear]

WAR's Hg needs seriously overhaul to make it worthwhile, in comparison to PLD's HG. WAR's rotation is already much more complicated than PLD's, they also have to time their Inner Beast before a big attack, and to top that off, WAR's Hg is also needed to be timed perfectly before getting hit by a fatal blow. Even when Hg is used correctly, the chance of survival after your HP dropping down to 1HP is almost nil.

[ChestyBear]

Here's an example in Ultima. In the 2nd Laser phase when DPS's and healers have to run around like headless chickens, MT often receives much less heal than usual due to Healers getting interrupted to dodge em lasers, a PLD could simply pop her HG and Trololol for 10 seconds with 100%HP afterward; meanwhile a WAR also pops his Hg when his HP is dangerously low. Since his legs have been cut off to the kneecaps due to Hg's side effect, all the WAR could do is bend over and take all of those lasers to the face. He's finally been "saved" with 1HP left but oh no Hg effect is running out and the healer only has 1 second to do anything. Now all you can do is pray to the RNG god that the a big heal would finish its casting before the fat AOE under your crippled feet would.