One to Fifty, One Zone - Long OP

[Richard]

looks like 1.18 Producer Letter XI is coming Today or Tomorrow! Yay ~

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post177581

XI isn't a great template to copy because the "direction" you progressed was determined by trends created by the players.

Which happens in EVERY mmo.

[popdai]

UTOPIA.

Se Sucks.

[Duelle]

Which happens in EVERY mmo.

WoW and CoH beg to differ.

[Rowyne]

Admittedly, this is a result of the whole sandboxy approach to design team Tanaka took. Sandbox "make your own content" is so niche its not even funny.

This is the reason why quest-based progression has caught on so well in modern design. You flow from one spot to the next with hints on where to go next once you're done with that area.

The problem is most of the people who jumped on here come either from games where your progression path is decided for you by the game itself (WoW, LotRO, CoH) or by the players (FFXI). The former has a slim chance of happening in a world where you have multiple classes to level (as much as I want it to become part of XIV), and the latter lacks the necessary amount of content to make it possible.

Quest-based leveling has become the norm in many big MMOs. It's not only a clever way to hide the level grind (immersing you in story so you're hooked and want to see what happens next), but we become used to that kind of structure.

WoW tried to make their questing in Cataclysm a bit less linear. Usually, the tales of each zone were all woven into a bigger story. But this time, the quest lines would start and end within a zone, instead of using breadcrumbs to lead you where they wanted you to go. They gave people the choice, and instead of embracing the freedom, people complained that it felt disjointed (admittedly, I was one of those people).

Most people need that little nudge.

I'm right there with you, Duelle, I'd love to see this game embrace some real quest-based content. I understand that it can't completely incorporate quest-based leveling and make it viable in a multi-class system. But some would break up the leves and give lore-junkies like myself something we're desperately missing.

Again, I think SE is still trying to find that balance between linear storytelling (like FFXIII) and complete freedom (FFXIV). Too much of either keeps a game from living up to its potential.

If this game is truly intended to be a 'sandbox' environment, with little story and no direction, I don't see myself sticking it out much longer. Because this format just isn't working for me.

[Kafeen]

I will always stand by my plea to nerf leves, make them solo only and give us something better to do because the game is too leve-centric and they are a bore no matter how many different leves you throw at us. They are very simple and very repetitive in nature.

I like to think that we can move away from guildleves in the future, keeping it as a 'starter' thing in starter zones, to give the casual players the boost they need. The novelty is obviously over after the first time doing a leve, and I frown looking at the same set of 7 constantly.

I want the future to look and be much more open in choices, looking through every zone to find the places you want to level against your favorite mobs and finding the best places to rank.

I really think this is counter-productive. While repeating the same 7 leves constantly may be boring and repetitive, removing them will probably be worse. While going out and finding the best mobs to level on will be fun, once someone has done that we still have the :

I'm not going to waste my time by getting lower sp/hr just to be in another zone.

metality. And rather than repeating the same 7 guildleves, you do what we did back in FFXI. You sit in one zone killing the same mob. At least 7 leves gives you a douzen or so different mob types. I'm sure any that played FFXI will remember Robber Crabs. We fought them in Kuftal, we fought them in Boyahda, fought them in Terrigan. For 10 levels, though the 50's you could fight nothing but Robber Crabs and even those were no different to the crabs we fought in Valkurm and the crabs we fought in Qufim. This is certainly no less repetative than doing leves.

Leves aren't perfect, not by a long shot. There's little diversity, exasperated by the "must have the best sp" metality that makes people repeat the same few leves rather than experiencing the diversity we do have and the ability to give the player control over the level of the mobs in the leve that means even if the 40's people still repeat the same leves they were doing in the mid-20's.

I'd much rather see a lot more diversity in the leves we get, more diversity in the mobs we fight, a fixed diffuculty level based on party size, and no repeating of leves done recently. I'd like to see more of the camps in the starting zones used earlier, with later levels being moved into other zones, either multiple camps per zone before level 40 or leves levels incremented in steps of 5 rather than 10. If we had that along with the changes to the terrain I think we'd all like to see, I think that would help a lot more than limiting leves more.

[Richard]

WoW and CoH beg to differ.

How does WoW not have a player defined progression path are you joking me? You quest in area A until they send you to area B until they send you to area C and so forth. Do you know how many player guides I've seen for optimal quest grinding paths? The only difference being that WoW gives you more progression options, which is a main talking point in this thread. More options is always better.

Idk about CoH as I'm sure that 2 people have played it since it was released.

[Daedae]

WoW and CoH beg to differ.

As far as leveling trends? After BC dropped, Winterspring, EPL, and Sithilus became wastelands(or more wastelandy for Sithilus and EPL loljokez) Players will ultimately skip zones where there is a lesser reward for their effort, thus creating a trend in story progression, like players skipping three zones which were mandatory in vanilla in favor of Hellfire Peninsula. The game didn't force the progression to go that way really, it was a better way to level, so people followed.

All games follow a format as for story and character progression, Start at 'A' and continue to B, then to C, and sometimes D1, or D2, and so on. It's how blanketed it is done, and how much lore, diversity, and drive the game coats so that the player is unable to notice it, or to have it as a bother. The problem with XIV is that the lack of diversity and drive makes the linear nature so glaringly apparent. We don't enjoy the time-sinks given because they are so translucent.

[Duelle]

Quest-based leveling has become the norm in many big MMOs. It's not only a clever way to hide the level grind (immersing you in story so you're hooked and want to see what happens next), but we become used to that kind of structure.

Personally, I liked that approach much better than L2's and XI's "camp somewhere and kill stuff to level". It also ties your growing stronger to the stories you see as you level.

WoW tried to make their questing in Cataclysm a bit less linear. Usually, the tales of each zone were all woven into a bigger story. But this time, the quest lines would start and end within a zone, instead of using breadcrumbs to lead you where they wanted you to go. They gave people the choice, and instead of embracing the freedom, people complained that it felt disjointed (admittedly, I was one of those people).

Guess I'll add that to the list of things they screwed up with Cata, then. I haven't played since sometime after ICC came out, since my work schedule utterly killed all of the time I had set aside for raiding.

Most people need that little nudge.

100% agree with you there.

If this game is truly intended to be a 'sandbox' environment, with little story and no direction, I don't see myself sticking it out much longer. Because this format just isn't working for me.

I'd say it was supposed to be sandbox under Tanaka. The way he and his team designed the game hints to that. Yoshida might have a different idea of how things should run, for all we know. The "damage" is still done, per se, seeing that there are obviously part of the game's core design that he's not going to be able to get rid of.

How does WoW not have a player defined progression path are you joking me?

Idk about CoH as I'm sure that 2 people have played it since it was released.

WoW's progression always involved a quest that directly sent you to the next quest hub. You start in Northshire, you get sent to Goldshire, you then get sent to run an errand to Stormwind where you find more quests, and then get ultimately sent to Westfall, then back to Stormwind to finish the thing with the Defias Brotherhood, then to the Redridge Mountains, then to Darkshire, and so on. I'll concede on one point and one point alone, that being that after Darkshire people started grinding in Scarlet Monastery for drops, even though that only applies to Alliance players as Alliance players have next to no quests that involve Scarlet Monastery.

CoH worked the same way. You got door missions from contacts and after you finished all their missions they would say "thank you for all your help. Here is the name of this guy/gal I know that could also use the help of a hero like you". Something you even got to choose one of several contacts to go to throughout various zones.

[Richard]

WoW's progression always involved a quest that directly sent you to the next quest hub. You start in Northshire, you get sent to Goldshire, you then get sent to run an errand to Stormwind where you find more quests, and then get ultimately sent to Westfall, then back to Stormwind to finish the thing with the Defias Brotherhood, then to the Redridge Mountains, then to Darkshire, and so on. I'll concede on one point and one point alone, that being that after Darkshire people started grinding in Scarlet Monastery for drops, even though that only applies to Alliance players as Alliance players have next to no quests that involve Scarlet Monastery.

Just because Blizzard designed quests to help you get from Point A to Point B in a progressive fashion does not mean the playerbase didn't optimize their own leveling and skip areas or do dungeon grinds only or even exp grind on mobs. Daedae said it perfectly already:

As far as leveling trends? After BC dropped, Winterspring, EPL, and Sithilus became wastelands(or more wastelandy for Sithilus and EPL loljokez) Players will ultimately skip zones where there is a lesser reward for their effort, thus creating a trend in story progression, like players skipping three zones which were mandatory in vanilla in favor of Hellfire Peninsula. The game didn't force the progression to go that way really, it was a better way to level, so people followed.

Does it really mean anything to compare the two? Not really but player trends will almost always be found in every MMO and they will define how people level. Same way with gear and strategy trends.

[Duelle]

Does it really mean anything to compare the two? Not really but player trends will almost always be found in every MMO and they will define how people level. Same way with gear and strategy trends.

Only true when you're tossing in the element of forced partying. THAT is what made the trends stick and click the way they did in FFXI. I've known plenty of people in WoW who grinded in the Badlands and Desolace instead of sticking around Darkshire. People who stuck around Maraudon and Sunken Temple instead of grinding in Uldaman. Hell, I knew alliance players that decided to hang out in Kalimdor to level rather than level in the Eastern Kingdoms, only setting foot there once they started on the Scholomance Key quest chain and the quests involving the Argent Dawn in the plaguelands.

You're not as tied to the trends of everyone else when you can level on your own.