SCH and the Demon Wall

[Kyomih]

Really? I used to be able to reproduce that effect reliably. Where stone-skin absorbs the knock-back and then you get the knock-back once it dissolves.

I'm pretty sure there's a thread on it here somewhere. Found it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...all-seriously/

That's why, just to be safe and prevent random things from happening, I always tell everyone to click stone-skin off and never apply it during demon wall.

What you said has never happened to me and it sounds more like a latency issue. You move too early, lag kicks in, you take damage despite stoneskin (yes it happens quite often, depending the hp of the target) and then get knocked off.

The things discussed in the thread:
Stoneskin stopping repel from going off since there is no damage going through
Stoneskin not stopping repel because there is damage getting through (Stoneskin gets used up by the small attack the wall does so it might expire the moment Repel goes off with additional damage).
A player going too far forward and the game thinking you are past the Well thus porting you back to the start
Lag and delay in knockback and moving too early and then getting knocked off.

Again, you issue is pretty much a combination of the above.

[HoroBoro]

Again - I have to say, from personal experience, I've only had this occur with stone-skin on.

I've had a dragoon party member fall off when he obviously knew the fight. And he feel off after the repel phase was long done. He said to me - wow, delay on the repel - that's weird. Next run, after we failed, I didn't stone-skin and nothing happened. I guess it could be that he just walked off the platform really fast Michael Jackson style <_<

I've had the same experience. Apply stoneskin to myself. No damage during repel. Took damage from one of Demon Wall's random AOEs - eating through stone-skin, repelled (though this was after the dragoon experiment and I was halfway expecting it, so did not get knocked off).

I've experience with latency. Unless latency lasts several seconds where everyone else is still moving and other Demon wall mechanics aren't affected by it... it wasn't latency.

Edit: Of course I haven't ran AK for a good few months with SS on. Maybe they patched it.

[JonFarron]

I strongly disagree with keeping fairy on follow during this fight. If she's on follow, she almost ALWAYS gets hit by slow. Which really hurts. I usually place her in the center, so she only gets hit by the heavy debuff. Just remember to place her back after repel.

Keep her on Obey til the part when the bees come. Then Rouse+Fey Illumination+Whispering dawn in that order. Super easy after that. Eos should be tanking bees if tank was unable to obtain aggro. Sustain should keep her alive. May need to Lustrate. DPS should burn the walls while tank/Eos keep the bees distracted. Sacred Soil is a lifesaver with the bees, use it and love it.

Try to Cleric Stance until the repel when the bees come. SCHs do a ton of dmg, and makes the fight go a lot quicker. Fairy should be able to handle things on her own til then, feel free to Lustrate though as it's not affected by CS.

[YuriRamona]

You saying that is bad advice seems like you are basing it off of someone with level 70+ gear. For the record, I always cleric for this and dps the hell out of the wall. For a new group with i50 gear, that is absolutely not the best choice.

Yes, he is a DPS check, but this is a negligible check that occurs way past bees phase. The reason for not straight out DPSing this boss as a healer is this: If your dps are new and not familiar with how to predodge the initial attacks, the heals need to exist to prevent them from dying when they are targeted by murder hole (which does considerably more damage to an i50). Long before we all rushed this fight with OP DPS, there was a time when you needed to fight well into the bee phase.

Also, casting Succor before the fight (immediately before) and during quiet phases with Stoneskin is not bad advice at all. Since galvanize takes the damage, you'll carry stoneskin longer through the battle. Maybe 10 seconds longer. But long enough to save some time and cast dots at the beginning.

I think it's important for me to note that I don't consider taking damage from the Murder Holes to be part of the encounter with the Demon Wall. Party members absolutely should not be getting hit with the Slow or Heavy effects. The healer should not be presuming that this will occur and preparing party members with SS and Adloquium.

An analogy is the three-healer strategy for Titan, which is there because it presumes that party members will be hit by Weight of the Land or Bomb Boulders.

If you are cutting short healer's DPS from being off Cleric Stance (or outright replacing a DPS, as in the three-healer Titan strategy), then you are just delaying your misery. As I said, if you are carrying party members deep into the bee phase because they can't dodge puddles, then it's going to be even more difficult to dodge those mechanics when the bees are out and placing red AoE effects over a large portion of the arena. In addition, because the bees deal massive damage to the tank, the healer will now be pre-occupied with keeping the tank alive, and if your party has been dependent on your SS and Adloquium to avoid damage and debuffs from Murder Holes, then you're now in very big trouble.

The exception to this, of course, is a party-wide Succor to block the repel knockback effect. I'm not sure if it's even strong enough to do this, but Adloquium on each of the DPS would probably be a better idea. This is mostly because repel can cut several actions out of their rotation, which is worth more in damage than a handful of Cleric Stance spells.

This advice applies equally to players who are at the minimum item level requirement. (Actually, even more so, because lower item level parties are in dire straits the further they get into bee phase, whereas high item level parties can afford to fool around and still win)

The DPS check is not the game over at the end where the Demon Wall pushes you off the edge. The DPS check is the entire fight, where the bees are essentially a message of, "I hope the Demon Wall is at less than 33% HP or you are going to die very soon". The fight is over when the healer is hit by a Murder Hole because they need to stand still to chain cast heals on the tank (who will be very squishy at low item level).

In the early period of the game, this encounter did extend well into the bee phase, I agree. But I contend that this does not mean that you should spend the first part of the encounter hunkering down in preparation for the bees and casting shields on party members who should not be getting hit by Murder Holes in the first place, let alone "preventing them from dying" (which sounds like they are being hit by multiple Murder Holes).

If you do think that it's a healer's job to do that kind of pre-shielding, which I consider to be carrying, we'd all be doing an immense disservice to the community. Party members that can not reliably dodge Murder Holes simply should not be passing this fight, and healers should not be enabling them to do so. Obviously, we all need time to learn, and new players should have the chance to experience the game. This is completely distinct from carrying new players through a fight the first time when they should be spending at least a half dozen to a dozen tries understanding and perfecting (and we all know that it took even way more than that for some of the early pioneers). This game progresses vertically pretty well, and the Demon Wall is meant to be a learning opportunity and challenge to prepare new players for even more difficult mechanics with the hard mode Primals. It is not some artificial barrier to be taken down by better-prepared and skilled party members, who are robbing them of the tough lessons they need to learn about the importance of mastering mechanics and giving the healer breathing space to Cleric Stance. Obviously even the most-prepared players will occasionally be hit by a Murder Hole (or due to server lag), but it's the exception, not the rule.

[Meltzeiferion]

and if your party has been dependent on your SS and Adloquium to avoid damage and debuffs from Murder Holes, then you're now in very big trouble.

Murder Hole isn't the straight purple AoE's on the ground, it is an attack the boss itself does with a target. You don't avoid murder hole, though from what I gather it does more damage based on how close people are to each other.

[AldoVonAlexandros]

Sometimes u dont have time to target thr boss to apply virus, make a macro with /ac "Virus" <tt> that way u can still aplly virus while u r still targeting the tank or the dps, also, making macros to micro manage your pet is very usefull, i recommend macros instead of placing her

[MagusVandel]

*snip*

I couldn't agree with you more that it is a form of carrying. DPS should understand the fight better and they should learn the mechanics.


However, I am in disagreement with the utter refusal to carry DPS in some cases for two reasons:
1. It would make using the Duty Finder pointless as most of the groups I have had in there require me to be at my A game in order for them to have a shot. Their fault? Most likely, but it doesn't change the fact that without them I cannot finish the dungeon. It is for that very reason that I help push them through in order to not waste my time. In addition, if DPS was lousy, I usually try to provide them tips on how that fight can go smoother in the future. Mostly this advice is met with praise on lower-level and about 50/50 praise/anger on endgame. Human nature makes the anger expected (I got mad when a tank who failed in Haukke and then complained that I had the wrong fairy out, but I kept it to myself).

And the only other reason I find plausible

2. They may be good players with a laggy connection that they just haven't figured out their lag yet. I know I was there (thank you Time Warner) on Titan HM for a while. Sometimes the problem isn't PEBKAC, but internet-related.

I'm not in disagreement with you that other people should do their job and I'm glad your answer was well thought out. If you are running with friends, your way also works out brilliantly(my tank friend has just recently come back and we are refusing to carry him, instead having him learn the fights for endgame). But I also see things like Demon Wall as a chance to work on one's own abilities in making the system work as well as possible. I don't see why both ways cannot coexist, as long as the DPS are understanding that they are failing and not everyone is willing to give them that extra edge. Which, with i50 gear, isn't an edge really, but more of a way to see how you can bring the most out of your class.