Dark Knight

[Exstal]

This is correct. Like the ninja, the DRK was never meant to be a tank. Its designed roll is to be a damage dealer. Yes in this game there is some strong similarities between a DRG and DRK, however if you have played a DRK in XI, you know what its about and whats unique. A dragoon does lancing damage with hug jumps (yes a simplification). A dark knight uses dark arcane powers to enable him to pull tricks off running the gambit and deal devastating blows to the enemy due to his willingness to do damage and risk himself.As to RDM I very much believe we will see it as a tank. A RDM can do everything, jack of all trades, and the only class type that can do everything is a tank. Its just that simple. As to this and DRK as a tank; no, DRK don't really wear heavy armor as a common aspect of the class. Please read the link in the OP. While this can occur, it is not apparently a common-place aspect of the class. If the wiki is wrong, please give evidence/links.

Except there was no such thing as a tank prior to XI. It was fast DPS, slow DPS, full healer, semi-healer.

Red Mage is even weaker in armour setting than Dark Knight ever has been.

Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it.

Now since there is a large emotional attachment to Dark Knight from the FFXI players and it seems that they don't like to look at things from a logical stand point, let me explain a few things.

Since, prior to FFXI, there was no such thing as a tank we must look at all previous classes as potential tanks, dps or healers.

Tank - Generally the more beefy DPS from previous games as it's more logical that ones who were known to take more hits, would be ones who would..well, take more hits.
DPS - Every class with the exception of full support was a DPS in some way, even white mage had DPS.
Healer - Pretty much any class who had a low amount of offensive ability will fall into this category

So now that we have that out of the way, shall we look at what classes would fall more into what role?
Note: Should try to make it so that it has some kind of relevance to *why* this class should be a tank

Tank
- Samurai
- Dark Knight
- Viking
- Beserker
- Beastmaster
- Mystic Knight

Healer
- Time Mage
- Dancer
- Calculator
- Machinist (?)

Limbo classes
- Green Mage
- Devout
- Mime
- Memorist

DPS
- every other FF class you can think of

Post limit

I get you might be objectionable to the concept of a RDM as a tank, but you have yet to say what role they should be?

DPS
- every other FF class you can think of

Mystic Knight, which would be a tank version of Red Mage, would be the tank and Red Mage would, naturally, be a DPS. Why? They have been known to wear some heavy armour but more in line with medium armour. So it's far more likely that it'd be a DPS rather than a tank. However, I'm sure SE can throw a curve ball like they did in FFXI (lolninjatank).

Yes this is true, but the question comes in on which best fits which class that exsisted previously. I understand the need for this to make sense, and the need for more tanks in the game as I have started leveling non-tank classes. However you fail to acknowledge my OP support, while be if flimsy, and bring up to any evidence to the contrary. With such flimsy support from a wiki it should be easy to knock over it, as all it is, is another perspective on the class not hampered by the bias of a single player.

Let's look at Warrior (fighter), Berserker, and Viking. What's common among these classes? High HP, ability to equip heavy armour (and some can use shields). That isn't any different from Dark Knight's previous incarnations, except for FFXI.

On top of this Leon, often considered the first DRK, used two handed weapons primarily, such as the axe and lance (Trolls just look at his proficiencies and don't bother), and his most powerful weapon was a lance. It is a class that focuses on damage above all use. It can not be any simpler than that and thus if they follow previous incarnations.

As I said previously, ever class was meant to deal damage and only damage. Only a few had any "tank" like capabilities namely Paladin/Knight with cover and, after the remake, Viking with provoke. Now I've taken a little look at Dark Knight on the wiki and found this neat skill from Final Fantasy Dimensions (a mobile phone game)

Dark Knight:
Draw Attacks - Draws enemy attacks onto oneself.

Dark Knight Dimensions

So it's not entirely impossible that Dark Knight could be a tank. As for Yoshida's Gladiator => Dark Knight idea, it was an example to show it's possible to turn tanks into DPS if they really needed to. I don't expect this to happen unless they follow the Sword/Shield construct that gladiator has and even then, Kitru has somewhere, stated that Gladiator has too many tanking CDs that would be useless or broken towards a DPS class.

I only dislike the idea of Dark Knight being a DPS solely on the basis that we can't have too many DPS and too little tank classes.

[Bloodclaw]

Except there was no such thing as a tank prior to XI. It was fast DPS, slow DPS, full healer, semi-healer.

Red Mage is even weaker in armour setting than Dark Knight ever has been.

I get you might be objectionable to the concept of a RDM as a tank, but you have yet to say what role they should be? They can take hits, deal, damage, and heal not only themselves but others. Sounds like an interesting new magic based tank. Its key class ability would be to make the protect spell on the personal level very beef-y making taking damage much more possible with a good deal of magic based mitigation. Just a thought, but I really don't care what the RDM does, I just hope its good, and more fitting than the Summoner and Archer class has turned out.

Now since there is a large emotional attachment to Dark Knight from the FFXI players and it seems that they don't like to look at things from a logical stand point, let me explain a few things.

Since, prior to FFXI, there was no such thing as a tank we must look at all previous classes as potential tanks, dps or healers.(List)

Yes this is true, but the question comes in on which best fits which class that exsisted previously. I understand the need for this to make sense, and the need for more tanks in the game as I have started leveling non-tank classes. However you fail to acknowledge my OP support, while be if flimsy, and bring up to any evidence to the contrary. With such flimsy support from a wiki it should be easy to knock over it, as all it is, is another perspective on the class not hampered by the bias of a single player.

The Dark Knight is characterized by wearing tight, sometimes enclosed black armor and wielding a sword steeped in wicked powers. Their physical stats, with exception of Defense, are usually high, but their other stats depend on the game they appear in. The typical Dark Knight ability is Souleater, also known as Darkness, which allows them to sacrifice their HP to perform stronger attacks.

However, Souleater is not exclusive to the Dark Knight class. Dark Knights may also have abilities based on Blood Equipment that allows them to absorb HP and MP from enemies. The Dark Knight is opposed by the Paladin, holy knights who protect allies and wield sacred powers. Unlike many classes, Dark Knights bear a signature weapon, the Deathbringer, which has a chance to kill certain enemies in a single blow.

On top of this Leon, often considered the first DRK, used two handed weapons primarily, such as the axe and lance (Trolls just look at his proficiencies and don't bother), and his most powerful weapon was a lance. It is a class that focuses on damage above all use. It can not be any simpler than that and thus if they follow previous incarnations.

One could construde that here: http://www.secrets-eorzea.com/en/news/news-of-the-day/220-interview-of-naoki-yoshida-by-secrets-of-eorzea
even the questioner as well as the response to the question by Naoki Yoshida acknowledges that this concept of a dark knight as a tank would be odd.

Will you make the second jobs very different from their class or first job? For example, the Dark Knight is a very aggressive job and since you seem to want it to become the second Gladiator job (This has never been confirmed but since Yoshi-P always uses it as an example, you never know... ), don't you think Gladiator's abilities are in contradiction with his style?

• Naoki Yoshida (NY):

I see what you mean. We created the system, but we do not necessarily need to follow it all the time. For example, let’s say that the Dark Knight is the second Gladiator job (attention, it is still not a confirmation), when you get its job stone at level 30, all acquired Gladiator skills will certainly be modified to better fit the image of the Dark Knight.

It was just to give an example to explain that we are not going to destroy how players consider different classes / jobs. It could be an interesting way to introduce future classes / jobs. We will consider your concerns on this issue, rest assured.
This should make things more interesting, don't you think?

So again, your opinion of a DRK seems to be the minority as Mr. Yoshida clearly states no disagreement as to the DRK as being a damage dealer, or remark that it could be anything else.

[Bloodclaw]

Updating the OP. Will get back to finishing it later. Maybe late tomorrow.

[Shurrikhan]

So again, your opinion of a DRK seems to be the minority as Mr. Yoshida clearly states no disagreement as to the DRK as being a damage dealer, or remark that it could be anything else.

The only thing is that 'heavy' damage dealer don't exist in MMOs in the same sense as they would in a single player game, sadly. (Steiner, for example, could be considered either a tank or dps, while being neither, really.) I won't say that Dark Knights have often been tanks, but they have traditionally been 'tanky'. But at the same time, the only armor likely for them to use as 'tanky' dps is that of Dragoons, who drop like flies.

I don't think Dark Knight will see any interesting use, innovative or traditional, until ARR's holy trinity of roles is a bit more flexible, and likely its armory system as well, neither of which seem likely.
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To Alistaire:
I certainly can't see much of the Dark Knight in a mere set of slash-stab and slash-slash-many_slashes combos. Having "Blade" in the ability name alone does not make for a fitting ability scheme.
You could at least have support functions through abilities than mimic mana, TP, or stat-burning (via Riot and Halon), and could reverse almost any defensive ability by applying the opposite of their effects to the enemy as personal debuffs (affecting only you), but then you just have an incredibly nukey class in ways unrelated to blood or life-steal mechanics, similar to pre-nerf Bard due to its amount of CDs. More useful would probably be a single 80-second or so CD active ability that reverses them with its own cooldown and maximum effects, such that it ought to be rotated for ideal effects (Rampart (Ravage)+Awareness (Piercing Eyes) -->Bulwark (Breaker)+Sentinel (Keeper)-->Rampart (Ravage)-->etc.) But even then, how interesting can they really get in this game?