Extreme Garuda MELEE Woes

[eagledorf]

...What particular disadvantage is there for melee DPS? For the first stage with the sisters, I've always done it where the melee stick with OT who takes the sisters on one at a time so there is no risk of getting hit by Garuda's WW and being one-shotted. In the second, recurring part with the tornadoes, JP groups like to do with DPS tanking one sister and splitting the damage from Downburst and the tanks splitting the other two, but in any case, MNK can transverse the tornadoes no problem and I've seen a DRG do it as well (I have no idea how though) so there is no reason why they can't stick with OT in this phase as well.

The real problem is that a common strategy seems to be putting melee with Garuda in the tornado phases. This is a terrible idea and I have no idea how it became common.

[Estellios]

I believe the Japanese players have a tactic of using melee DPS as a third tank, to tank Chirada. The off-tank grabs Suparna, and main tank focuses on Garuda + Spiny Plume I believe.

Can be done, people simply don't deviate from the "most optimal" tactic. Just like how Coil parties refuse to not run 2 bards.

This.

It makes the fight relatively simple and it's incredibly melee-friendly as long as MT grabs Garuda back from the OT after Suparna is dead. It's also a lot less stressful on healers. Melee can use Spineshatter dive or Shoulder tackle to get by tornadoes. We usually have our BRD tank Chirada as they can grab initial aggro really quickly.

Just make sure that all the DPS stack up together so that Downburst does low damage (it splits, as someone let me know when I asked about it in a thread earlier this week) and that they move out of the way of Slipstream.

[Empressia]

there is a 3s window where the giant tornados on the last phase will disappear for a moment and u can simply run through it (not using sprint)

[eagledorf]

This.
Melee can use Spineshatter dive or Shoulder tackle to get by tornadoes.

Spineshatter Dive, there we go. That's how the DRG are doing it. Thank you.

[Sygmaelle]

Garuda ex is a joke for melees, Ifrit ex on the other hand is really annoying for melees. >_>;

I still can't understand the timing for Whicked wheel on garuda EX in the tornado phase, while on Ifrit EX its really hard to do a single mistake as a melee ~ ~

[Yagrush]

I've tanked this many a time, and I don't see these mythic Wicked Wheels as Off tank. I take chirada first and then Suprana, and never see Melees take damage sept for random frinctions, tornadoes, or slipstreams.

[Ri_ri]

I still can't understand the timing for Whicked wheel on garuda EX in the tornado phase, while on Ifrit EX its really hard to do a single mistake as a melee ~ ~

Seems to be affected by their health. After a certain time passed, they start Friction, and at a certain % of health, Downburst and Wicked Wheel. So if you bring the health of one of them low while the Friction is casting, Suparna will cancel and go straight to Wicked Wheel, same with Chirada and her Downburst....

That's what I think. I noticed that the "Friction canceling" happens more frequently in farm groups focusing on one harpy.

[TeganLaron]

I've completed it with melees, but as a healer they definitely make my job harder. Getting hit by wicked wheels and running back an forth through tornadoes just makes them more of a hindrance than a help. I know it's not their fault, it's the way the fight was designed.

[Duelle]

do u know if you stack as in stack with tanks, it reduce the damage of wicked wheel?

You mean damage is split between the number of targets struck? Like Thane Korth'azz's meteor or our own sabotender's 500 needles? Interesting...

It was seen as an annoyance and wasn't in fact about dmg output, but more about less headache for the healers.

This is also why the playerbase greatly favored Utsusemi, as MP was a rare commodity and not having to spend it curing DPS was just a benefot for the whole alliance.

I fear we will now have a similar situation in XV, more than a decade later.
Parties and Alliances will always favor the easiest route to a goal; the path of least resistance.

While SMNs, BLMs and BRDs require the least amount of upkeep, they are also on par with melee dps in terms of dmg output.

On your first paragraph, considering the lead battle designer is the same guy that did it in FFXI, are you that surprised at history repeating itself? >.>

Single-boss focus is in part responsible for the damage. One of the ways multiple classes in a group comp became acceptable in WoW was due to bosses having different mechanics within the same instance. Using Ulduar as an example, you had an encounter where classes with positional requirements were penalized while everyone had to kite random lazers (Kologarn), followed by a boss that sort of favored melee due to everyone having to stack on the tank (Auriaya), followed by a boss that penalized melee in one phase and penalized ranged in another (Mimiron), followed by a boss where you needed both melee and ranged to do the job (Freya), a boss that penalized spellcasters (Vezzax) and so on. You couldn't pull any of this "ranged only" BS because you needed people of the multiple roles and sub-roles in order to be able to down bosses and clear the raid. If The Howling Eye was a raid with 5 bosses, 4 boss-level Ixxal before getting to Garuda, and each encounter favored ranged, melee, casters, physical DPS and so on per boss, you would be encouraged to bring a balanced comp. The only snag is that such design would NOT favor duty finder.

WHMs and Healers tend to get rather lazy and passive and prefer a class that requires less healing from them. That's just how healing becomes in an MMO after doing it for hours on end, day after day, for months.

This is a mentality carried over from FFXI. Healers never bitched about healing targets that were not worthy of them spending mana to do so in WoW, for example.

You could do this by giving tanks more abilities or passive traits/auras that grant all surrounding members of the PT a increased defense % or a flat -damage taken%.

This is not needed. What's needed is for boss design to not favor ranged-only and to include variety. Primal fights are admittedly screwed because they are single-boss raids and duty finder kind of puts a wrench on encouraging balanced comps.

[Lafiele]

Melee is not impossible at all. It's just the general public that PLAYS melee sucks at avoiding wicked wheel and thus we lead to this.

On the other hand, SE can't make content which is easier for melee while maintaining the same difficulty for range. It's usually, melee easy, range super easy; melee hard, range medium; melee SUPER HARD; range hard. One way is to buff the actual melee class defensively but that would make them OP because they would become OFF OFF tanks lol.

So ultimately, I think the best solution is, buff melee dps even more to trade off the risk. Melee at the moment is still gimped in half the new content available. Perhaps something like a damage increase over time the longer you stay near a boss?