An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Nharil]

I'd like to get a discussion going on what everyone's thoughts are regarding how player death is handled in-game, and the consequences (or lack there of) the are attributed to it.

In general I've seen many opinions usually fall into one of two categories:

A) Severe death penalties hinder my gameplay experience are a hassle to the players. They stop us from enjoying the game and should be kept to a minimum.

B) Death penalties are a necessity and help to keep a feeling of urgency and suspense within the context of the world itself.

I'll preface this by saying that over the years of playing MMOs from Ultima Online and Everquest all the way up through FFXI, FFXIV and World of Warcraft, that the ones I find the most enjoyable are those with (at least partially) severe consequences for death.

I'd personally put myself in under category B. I feel like XIV in its current state throws all caution to the wind. While exploring the world, there isn't a sense of fear, or any emotion at all. Monsters that aggro are rarely scary because you can just continue running as if nothing has happened and with few exceptions, survive and be back to full health in a matter of seconds. In the event you manage to take a dirt nap, all you've lost is a few minutes' run (or if you're forgetful, a few anima to teleport yourself back to the nearest Aetheryte).

There just feels like a disctinct lack of caution to the gameplay right now. Eorzea is gorgeous in many ways (and the dev team has done a fantastic job building the world to look good, repeated elements aside), but all of the normal maps and ambient occlusion in the world can't elicit a legitimate feeling.

I'll use FINAL FANTASY XI as an example, since it bears a close resemblance. The very first time I made the run to Jeuno at level 20 to begin my chocobo quest, I was terrified to run through the higher level zones. Not only because drawing aggro meant (most likely) losing my level and setting me back another day, but because the idea of hoofing it through a zone of monsters that I knew would mean the end of me the moment they caught sight of me was thrilling -- This happened nearly 7 years ago and I can still remember the feeling! Those kind of memories stick with you, and if games like FINAL FANTASY XI are good at any one thing, it's creating memorable lasting experiences, whether good or bad.

So I'm not just indulging in my own personal feelings, there's a lot to be said about the current state of FFXIV's death penalties too. It keeps the action flowing and leaves little downtime in day-to-day activities. It also allows players the freedom to actively explore the world without feeling like they will lose all of their hard-earned progress just because of a fluke or a small mistake. I'm sure anyone playing FINAL FANTASY XI cursed the game at one point because a monster turned around right as you were running past them and with no chance to fight back, you had little choice other than to just stop and accept your fate.

My Proposal

Without a sense of caution in the world, it's easy to dismiss the game as too easy, lenient or lacking in challenge. I would like to see harsher penalties imposed on character death in some form in order to stress the importance of caution of player choices, and to create an air of fear in zones or areas that are worthy of it.

Possible solutions

There are so many ways that this could be tackled. If we die, do we take a loss to our experience points? Our rank points? What of equipment durability? It's a tough topic to cover, since there is no doubt wide and varied schools of thought beyond the two categories I mentioned at the start.

If it were up to up to me, I'd like to see the following:

• On death, impose a 5% Experience point and Rank point loss.
• the penalty will NOT, however, drop you below your current level or rank.
• The current 3-minute cooldown timer for raise sickness will continue to stay in effect, with stackable augments from gear to counteract the sickness (or expendable items?)
• Being raised by another player or NPC will award all lost rank points, but experience will remain affected
• Allow players to pay either a certain amount of guardian's aspect or anima at an Aetheryte crystal to instantly absolve their raise sickness.

I'd like to see a nice middle-ground between the harsh XP-loss system in place in FINAL FANTASY XI and the mere inconvenience of corpse-hunting (and slight hit to the wallet) in World of Warcraft.

More than anything, I'd like to see others' thoughts on this. This is one of the few cases in MMOs where I feel player consequence is worth having.

What do you all think?

[BelgianRofl]

There has to be a reason not to die. Right now there is none.

[Abriael]

Running back from the bind and waiting for the resurrection sickness to expire is a time sink.

An experience/skill points loss is nothing else than another time sink (you lose the time you spent to earn that experience/skill).

It's exactly the same, in an apparently different form. The system can stay as it is.

PS: How is this related to 1020? There's no dev thread related to changes to death penalty.

[viion]

I am mixed between both. I like not losing SP because in XI sometimes i'd die a ton and lose a lot, but in XI it was butt-easy to get it back such as merit parties or now abyssea?

In XIV only now do you have a easy way, if you lost say 2k per death, even after 15 deaths you can do 2 leves and get it all back, which takes about 30 minutes. So its not even a reason to not die because the consequence is wasting 30 minutes and 2 leves which by 50 you wouldnt care about.

There is also the fact right now you get placed on 0SP so you'd instantly delevelled, they'd either have to make it so once you're 50 you dont lose SP at all OR the XI option and allow you to level beyond and cap @ 1 tnl then you lose it.

I prefer not to lose SP because even if I did i would not care and just get it back, it wouldnt be a reason for me to not die, if im getting somewhere in game im not gunna run past a mob and think "bah if i die doesnt matter i'll run back" cuse the amount of time it takes to run anywhere in this game is a friggen punishment as it is (Especially when what view you have...) but i could live with it if there was SP loss.

So all in all, I dont care much lol but I'd prefer not to lose SP I'm all about having fun in a game.

[AshelyRiot]

I agree with the OP and please add some music for when you die =)

[Alyssa]

I am against additional death penalties, such as experience loss. I would be okay with resurrection sickness being more detrimental, but with the same duration.

[Visch]

I'd welcome SP loss when you died.

When you hit max level on a job... It's like you're done without a merit system which will probably come in the future but... After that what?

in IX I enjoyed still having to party with my my 75 jobs in parties to keep up my buffer and as a testing ground for gear set ups.

[Nharil]

Running back from the bind and waiting for the resurrection sickness to expire is a time sink.

An experience/skill points loss is nothing else than another time sink (you lose the time you spent to earn that experience/skill).

It's exactly the same, in an apparently different form. The system can stay as it is.

PS: How is this related to 1020?

I couldn't find a dev code that had anything to do with player death or general XP/SP concerns, so I tried to pick one it could possibly be lumped in with.

[Abriael]

I couldn't find a dev code that had anything to do with player death or general XP/SP concerns, so I tried to pick one it could possibly be lumped in with.

dev codes are, if i understood correctly, to be used exclusively when the discussion is related to the topics listed in the related dev thread.

It's not even that appropriate since dev1020 is about party dynamics, and you can pretty obviously die when you're solo or when you're in a group.

[Nharil]

dev codes are, if i understood correctly, to be used exclusively when the discussion is related to the topics listed in the related dev thread.

Ah, noted. I'll remove the tags and see what I can do about getting the title changed then. Thanks!

If a community mod reads this, I'd appreciate it if the dev code could be removed from the title just to keep things clear.

Done =)
GM Bublex