Tried out PvP with WHM and SCH...made me reconsider PvE choice.

[fraeblood]

Yes it seems you like SCH more, and you should play which ever you like. I guess that is the point of the thread. The list is def bias toward Sch getting + points only from your opinion and not just the black and white usefulness of the abilities. Also some abilities far out weigh others, so just a + and - judging of them seems very ignorant of the overall usefulness of the skills being judged. But in the end in PVP and PVE it is the guy behind the keyboard more then the class they are playing.

[JonFarron]

It's actually had the opposite affect for me. I enjoy WHM a LOT more than SCH in pvp. SCH in pvp is so... brain dead, lol. No skill required. (Well, maybe a LITTLE)

I've been considering swapping to WHM, except my coil static requires me as SCH, lol.

Also, as a healer DO NOT EVER go into PvP without Surecast. only a 30second cooldown, and next spell you cast with it on cannot be interrupted.

[Jyoeru]

A) Double whm comps in PVE are pretty solid.
B) SCH getting huge PVP nerf soon.
C) Play what you like. There will always be an FOTM. Don't lick it.

[WhoIsTheGuest]

@cainejw
You use Shroud as if that's the solution to MP issue...and you say "WHM can go crit too"...Guess you didn't know Shroud doesn't scale, and WHM with crit is far lesser than SCH with crit due to the awesome shield proc scaling, while WHM can only depends on RNG-god?

"SCH doesn't have a spell speed buff innate to the class. They have to rely on a faerie."
Are you joking? Do you know how a pity is that "spell speed buff" with such a long cooldown, and you are comparing it by saying "SCH have to rely on a faerie"?? A mini-healbot with its own hp pool, ever-healing even if the caster is stunned/silenced (unlike a team with WHM), can swap between defensive/offensive situation, one even have silence, inherits spellspeed stat from caster, and omg I don't even want to continue.../facepalm

All that you speak, is about PvE Healing. In that aspect alone, there's already a huge thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...red-to-Scholar
For all your PvE arguments, you can read it all there, I wouldn't want to waste time reiterate.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's assume WHM is totally equal in PvE compared with SCH, so:
Why shouldn't WHM able to be equal with SCH in PvP as well? Why deny us to be on-par?
I am not asking to nerf SCH, only wish that WHM can be as good by having more utilities, and a useful secondary stat like SCH. Nevermind the mode-swapping-sidekick.
Understand this: by making WHM on par with SCH doesn't mean people will never need SCH anymore, your position will never be threatened, I am not asking for exact same skills as SCH, I am not trying to make WHM replaces SCH in PvE or PvP. I just point out the obvious disadvantage of using WHM in a PvP team compared with SCH, so both healer choice have equal pros, unlike now which is mostly cons for WHM.

@fraeblood
Not sure if you actually read.

Yes it seems you like SCH more, and you should play which ever you like.

I stated at least 2 times that I love WHM more than SCH, that's why I am still sticking with it, just hoping it gets more balanced.

I guess that is the point of the thread.

No guessing needed, the point of the thread is stated very clearly...you did read it, I hope.

The list is def bias toward Sch getting + points only from your opinion and not just the black and white usefulness of the abilities. Also some abilities far out weigh others, so just a + and - judging of them seems very ignorant of the overall usefulness of the skills being judged.

And yes of course, as I already stated: I am biased towards WHM when I list it, that's why WHM gets +, SCH gets -, because I like WHM more. Oh you didn't read that either. Surprise.
Yes, they are all + and -, and as I said (I hope you did read this): I didn't even bother to weight, because it's too obviously lopsided. If you actually read the whole lists, played some pvp, read this list again, and still didn't find it obvious that SCH >>> WHM in PvP, well...I wouldn't waste any more breathe.

It's actually had the opposite affect for me. I enjoy WHM a LOT more than SCH in pvp. SCH in pvp is so... brain dead, lol. No skill required. (Well, maybe a LITTLE)

I've been considering swapping to WHM, except my coil static requires me as SCH, lol.

Also, as a healer DO NOT EVER go into PvP without Surecast. only a 30second cooldown, and next spell you cast with it on cannot be interrupted.

I have both Surecast and Equanimity, and use them in every single match. And no, it's not uninterruptable, it still can be interrupted by Stun. I rarely hit by silence or knockback, but I bet they can interrupt Surecast/Equanimity too.
At this stage, I do not want to argue if Surecast/Equanimity should be actually what it says it is: SURE-cast. It's too early to judge at this stage, and it will affect ALL CASTERS, not just healers, so I am in no position to argue, yet. In short, I am fine with it, for now.


Anyway, despite everything said, from bottom of my heart: Happy Heavensturn everyone "Embrace your inner horse"!

[cainejw]

@cainejw
You use Shroud as if that's the solution to MP issue...and you say "WHM can go crit too"...Guess you didn't know Shroud doesn't scale, and WHM with crit is far lesser than SCH with crit due to the awesome shield proc scaling, while WHM can only depends on RNG-god?

Doesn't matter. You still have it. You can complain that it isn't equal all you want, but the reality is that it shouldn't be equal. WHM is not SCH, and homogenization of classes isn't what FFXIV is doing.

And in doing simulations, the shield is not what makes crit "awesome." That's a big number that scholars think is making their healing superior. It's a crit Physick that makes crit pull away from other stats due to the high frequency of cast. SCH cannot cast exclusively Adloquium without going out of MP in roughly 1 minute. You can still use crit, and the scaling appears to be the same for all classes...the difference is that you think crit Adloquiums make more of a difference than they actually do because PVP matches are a sleep-fest.

Are you joking? Do you know how a pity is that "spell speed buff" with such a long cooldown, and you are comparing it by saying "SCH have to rely on a faerie"?? A mini-healbot with its own hp pool, ever-healing even if the caster is stunned/silenced (unlike a team with WHM), can swap between defensive/offensive situation, one even have silence, inherits spellspeed stat from caster, and omg I don't even want to continue.../facepalm

Eos and Selene require management. Up until 2.0, that management was very questionable. Now, we have macros that can make Eos or Selene heal to a solid potential. How solid? On any parse, a WHM should heal roughly 50-40% of the healing of the fight. This is due to overhealing on Medica II and Regen continuously being counted as healing. We have no indication of how much of their healing is "real healing" but we'll assume it's still a good amount.

Now, for the Scholar, depending on the gear setup, you would expect to see 40-30% of the healing. The other 30-20% should be Eos and less for Selene. Now, why is that? The fact that almost a third of Scholar healing is cut off onto the pet. That's why. Scholar heals are weaker, by design, to force usage of the pet. That means our output is directly related to how we can manage Eos or Selene. We know that it also appears that neither will use Embrace until around 80-75% of health. That means that the Scholar, if they do not manage their pet, will lose healing output. This means that the faeries are not "healbots" as you so claim. They are extensions of the Scholar and, as such, much be managed in full. We now have those tools.

And no, the faerie will not always function if the caster is locked down. If our bar is locked, their bar is locked, especially now that the faeries are almost always on Obey and macroed to embrace on Physick and Adloquium in attempt to increase our healing output.

All that you speak, is about PvE Healing. In that aspect alone, there's already a huge thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...red-to-Scholar
For all your PvE arguments, you can read it all there, I wouldn't want to waste time reiterate.

I responded to this thread that is about PVP healing informing a PVE decision. In as such, the conversation is two-fold. I'm not interested in mindless whining that WHM's Medica II lasts longer for lesser healing, you guys have to start using Cure III, and Lustrate allows SCH to actually have some sort of emergency backup. I get it. You want everything SCH has without any of the drawbacks.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's assume WHM is totally equal in PvE compared with SCH, so:
Why shouldn't WHM able to be equal with SCH in PvP as well? Why deny us to be on-par?

SCH are being nerfed in PVP soon. The chief complaints concerning SCH in PVP are Lustrate and Miasma. You're likely to hear your cries heard on both of these fronts. However, I choose not to play PVP. It's a mess. It always turns classes against each other in demands of NERF HIM NERF HIM. Like, oh, WHMs demanding that SCH be nerfed.

I am not asking to nerf SCH, only wish that WHM can be as good by having more utilities, and a useful secondary stat like SCH. Nevermind the mode-swapping-sidekick.

SCH has two secondary stats of near equal power. Crit and Det. Additionally, Eos/Selene do not "swap modes." I don't know where you get this silly idea that Eos is for healing, Selene is for DPSing or buffing. Selene can help healers. Eos can help DPS. They're not exclusive.

What you're asking is for one of two things: SCH to be brought down to your level or WHM to be brought up to SCH level by giving WHM the tools SCH has. If you give WHM the tools of a SCH, why would anyone play SCH? There's no reason to play a class with weaker heals that requires a pet to be equal to WHM when WHM has all of the tools SCH has. Either way, you are asking for SCH to see a change that would fundamentally destroy any reason to be a SCH in PVP or PVE.

Understand this: by making WHM on par with SCH doesn't mean people will never need SCH anymore, your position will never be threatened, I am not asking for exact same skills as SCH, I am not trying to make WHM replaces SCH in PvE or PvP. I just point out the obvious disadvantage of using WHM in a PvP team compared with SCH, so both healer choice have equal pros, unlike now which is mostly cons for WHM.

I'm sorry to be vulgar, but bullshit. You are demanding that WHM get the tools a SCH has or tools equal to those tools. You propose NOTHING as an alternative for SCH to then remain viable. You are essentially demanding that you receive something on par with Lustrate, Galvanize, and Crit on a class that can already give massive burst healing. You are doing the exact same thing that every WHM has done since the nerf to Holy and the elongation (but same output) of Medica II. You see that you have different tools now and you're demanding that SCH either receive the same nerfs OR you get a buff that will make SCH less viable.

Stop the pretending. Call it what it is. You want SCH to pay for some perceived transgressions either in PVP and/or PVE, and I'm frankly tired of WHMs pulling the same crap that you see time and time again in every single game that has PVP. You can't do what someone else can do so either they have to change (the more likely scenario as we're now seeing with nerfs incoming to the arcanist family) or you have to change (and receive buffs then requiring SCH to receive buffs so on and so on).

And this is, frankly, why I don't play PVP...because gamers seem to have adopted the saying of, "If you can't beat 'em, complain until they get nerfed. Then you can beat 'em."

[NeonC]

whm needs 3sec reflect.

[Rochetm]

Looks like a Sch here is afraid of his class getting nerfed.

[Sebazy]

You are doing the exact same thing that every WHM has done since the nerf to Holy and the elongation (but same output) of Medica II.

That's a pretty big brush you're tarring us with!

[Sanguisio]

People seem to forget SCH have no CC. A good WHM vs a good SCH, i'd it would entirely boil down to the DPS in a team.

[JonFarron]

People seem to forget SCH have no CC. A good WHM vs a good SCH, i'd it would entirely boil down to the DPS in a team.

Idk, that heal debuff is brutal...

I do find things a joke after I sleep Eos, however. lol (dumb schs not paying attention to their minions ;D)