Market Wards vs AH

[Verecund]

So do malls and other stores.... So I guess that means both are viable options?

Yeah... other stores like Borders and Barnes & Noble. Do they happen to sell newspapers? Because that would make me "lol" "irl"...

Having a 'sandbox'-type economy is a good idea on paper, but after it is implemented people will then start to gather towards a central economic hub (i.e. the zone with the best things going for it... in this case, Uld'ah). This usually happens anyway later down the road due to new content and zones. But, the problem with the Retainer system is that you can't access the game economy if people are not selling in your city, which inevitably leads to the evacuation of pretty much everything that isn't the 'Economic Hub'. Did I mention all this content just got figuratively thrown away?

Also, imagine what this would be like for new players now coming into the game... if their town (i.e. Gridania) has no one playing in it, they wouldn't have an economy to buy from, and they also might think that not so many players play the game. Etc.

[Abriael]

Also, imagine what this would be like for new players now coming into the game... if their town (i.e. Gridania) has no one playing in it, they wouldn't have an economy to buy from, and they also might think that not so many players play the game. Etc.

If a town lacks people, the problem isn't the market wards, the problem is that the town lacks traffic, and that needs to be fixed. A travel route between Gridania and Limsa is long overdue.

[kukurumei]

Yeah... other stores like Borders and Barnes & Noble. Do they happen to sell newspapers? Because that would make me "lol" "irl"...

Having a 'sandbox'-type economy is a good idea on paper, but after it is implemented people will then start to gather towards a central economic hub (i.e. the zone with the best things going for it... in this case, Uld'ah). This usually happens anyway later down the road due to new content and zones. But, the problem with the Retainer system is that you can't access the game economy if people are not selling in your city, which inevitably leads to the evacuation of pretty much everything that isn't the 'Economic Hub'. Did I mention all this content just got figuratively thrown away?

Also, imagine what this would be like for new players now coming into the game... if their town (i.e. Gridania) has no one playing in it, they wouldn't have an economy to buy from, and they also might think that not so many players play the game. Etc.

Well FF11 has that problem too, but the wards presents a problem that retainers can't be in two places at once. If FF14 ever gets successful enough to have that situation, then yes. But it's a doom idea Market Wards, because if a population of 2000-3000, need 8-12 retainers to cover the zones, then you would have over tens of thousands of retainers burdening the system.

I don't even want to think about a MMO to where I have to managed my equipment and items in that mess.

Not to mention you would have retainers names called Puppiesaresupercute1123 due to the unique name problem

[Abriael]

Well FF11 has that problem too, but the wards presents a problem that retainers can't be in two places at once. If FF14 ever gets successful enough to have that situation, then yes.

Not needed. All we need is a centralized search system. As I said many times, there's not even one function of an AH that cannot be implemented in the market wards.

[kukurumei]

Not needed. All we need is a centralized search system. As I said many times, there's not even one function of an AH that cannot be implemented in the market wards.

Centralized search system doesn't make retainers disappear(then it would be called an AH). You would still need to find a way to that retainer.

Not to mention a centralized search system would be even more problematic in the fact that why do you even have market ward zones in the first place. Why not have a "teleport market wards" function on your menu...

Oh great... it's the same problem all over complicated imitation of an AH with 20x the complexity.

[Abriael]

Centralized search system doesn't make retainers disappear(then it would be called an AH). You would still need to find a way to that retainer.

Not to mention a centralized search system would be even more problematic in the fact that why do you even have market ward zones in the first place. Why not have a "teleport market wards" function on your menu...

Oh great... it's the same problem all over complicated imitation of an AH with 20x the complexity.

Again, there's no need. You can implement a direct consignment system. The name of the system isn't important. What matters is that is functional.
Market wards are functional, and every single feature of an AH can be implemented into it. Keyword search, price history, centralized search, direct delivery.

It's not necessary more complicated than an AH, because besides the graphical interface, it's still a database, and works pretty much in the same way.

The advantage of doing that instead of completely scrapping the system and making a new one are twofold: Improving an existing system is less demanding, resources-wise, than making a completely new one. And you still keep the unique features of market wards for those that enjoy them.

[kukurumei]

The advantage of doing that instead of completely scrapping the system and making a new one are twofold: Improving an existing system is less demanding, resources-wise, than making a completely new one. And you still keep the unique features of market wards for those that enjoy them.

Not when it's the retainer/market ward system.

Again the carrying bucket on the head analogy. Why try to perfect it, when it's easier to carry it with your hands.

A classic AH is the far far better solution both short and long term. You're just arguing for a pet like system.

[Artius]

Wow...21 pages! And yes, I just read my way through most of it.

Anyway, this is slowly sliding into the realm of name-calling. Let's try to get back on topic.

I think everyone can agree that the current Market Ward system AS IT IS CURRENTLY IMPLEMENTED is flawed.
I would also think that everyone can agree that an Auction House system has a long history to support it.
This DOES NOT mean that it is the BEST solution, just one that has worked in the past. Both methods have their merits and their problems.

Let's break this down some:
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AH v MW (in this order simply because it is in order alphabetically, blame the engineer in me)

AH Pros:
-Search, locate, AND buy in one step. (aka, instant gratification)
-Can be implemented to be "universal" (defined below) or inividual
-Bidding can get items cheaper than "retail value" (defined below)

AH Cons:
-Instant search and locate causes shopping "tunnel vision" (will define below)

MW Pros:
-Current implementation has search and locate (although it is clunky)
-Allows players to "stumble" upon hidden deals/goods, finding things they normally might not be searching for

MW Cons:
-Currenly is implemented by city (unique wards to each town)
-Requries hunting down the seller (can be time consuming depending on load times and performance)


DEFINITIONS:
"universal" implementation - on single implemntation across all towns (eveyone shops the same listing no matter where they are)
"retail value" - what the general game population deems the acceptable value for an item
"tunnel vision" - when shopping you only find what you are looking for because you are unable to "run across" other items without INTENTIONALLY looking for other random items.
-----------------------------------------------

As you can see, both systems have their problems. Thing thing to do is look at both systems and see if a hybrid could be made that would run better. Take the good from both and put it together, not just bash one or the other.

Below is how I would like to see Market Wards implemented (this is still far from a perfect combination):
-Make the wards "universal". This way, when I go to one ward, I go to that ward in ALL the cities.
-Make the wards bigger. I do not know how much of the ward's area design is due to server side load requirements and how much is an artifact from the previous dev team's ideas. (more on this idea below)
-Allow searching of the wards from ANYWHERE in the ward, not just by the doors. I do not know why it was implemented this way, it may have just been easier to do since there was alreay a menu entry activation by approaching the doors (the option to exit the wards). Hopefully it was just a bandage and not meant as the full fix.
-Prevent retainers from spawing in the MIDDLE of the walkway. Maybe just line them up along the edges or put long rows of small stalls (similar to real-world flea markets). This would require making the wards bigger, though, but that already needs to be done.

Now, I do not know if this is fully possible, but here is what I would personally like to see:
1.) make each ward a ring with the retainers forced to the edges. The total length (nominal circumference) would need to be at least 3-4 times the current market ward lenght, but the width could easily remain the same.
2.) stack the wards all in one instance. The game already has some form of load limitation going on, so client-side should be able to handle it since there will be a floor between each level. (why do you think you have sucn a long lead-in to LL or Grid, or have to walk AROUND the main gate in Uld?)
3.) in each of the cardinal directions put a set of stairs with a triple switch-back. (this block line-of-sight between wards to reduce load for the client)
4.) with each set of stairs, also put an elevator to the other wards. (they already have elevators in LL and Uld, so implementation is there and it works rather quickly)
5.) allow ward searching from anywhere within the ward (just add the option in the Menu from the moment the player enters, no have it keyed by being near a door).

What this would allow:
-Players would be able to "instant search" at all times (no walking back and forth, no need for paper/pencil/notepad/etc)
-For those who prefer the "immersion" the game allows, you can walk up and down the stairs, others could just jump to the ward they need
-By having it all in one zone, there is no "the Uld wards are better than the LL wards". This also has the benefit of reducing the number of retainers necessary for sellers since you do not need one in each city)

The problems:
-Still requires waking to the seller (I do not think there is any way around this in a MW style system) and the walk might be a bit farther
-This would not be capable of reducing the number of retainers unless a bank or housing storage system was implemented as well
-A whole multi-level zone would now have to be loaded (although it should not be too bad as long as there is not a long line of sight).
-How to implement it into the "fluff" of the world.


As for an Auction House, I would personally like to see a TRUE Auction House set up. It would be possible to have it run along-side the Market Ward system without interfering...but only if there is no "instant buy" option. Require it to be an AUCTION, not just a buy/resell shop interface.

[Abriael]

Not when it's the retainer/market ward system.

You're somehow assuming that the market wards system is somehow incredibly more complex server wise than an AH. There's absolutely no solid reason to believe it is.

Again the carrying bucket on the head analogy. Why try to perfect it, when it's easier to carry it with your hands.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you're using a very, very wrong analogy
Millions of people carry weights on their head because, once you learned to balance them, it puts a lot less strain on your muscles and radically reduce fatigue

It's actually very much appropriate. You believe carrying a bucket on your head to be such a terrible idea, too bad it isn't. It's good for your body.

A classic AH is the far far better solution both short and long term. You're just arguing for a pet like system.

Not really. I'm arguing for a system that allows for more features.