[DEV] Time sinks and satisfaction, a plea from one of your hardcore fans

[Physic]

Yes, I know that Zetsumei. But the point was that each option for both questions 9 and 10 were based on the notion that the current claim system would be done away with. That includes the third option you mentioned.

Who's to say that everyone wanted the current system scrapped? I know I don't. But I was forced to pick on of the options available, even though I don't agree with any of them.

And just for the record, I also chose more instanced content because of this change. Not because I like instanced content. But because with something like this, the only challenging content is pretty much left for instances. Again, forced to make a decision that I personally don't even agree with.

1 claim system is really bad for parties, first claim for loot is also kind of bad.
I would assume skill will be split amongst the parties based on damage dealt or damage recieved, and i would assume open world bosses/engagemenst would be built around a lot of people, extremely large hp pool, able to call minions, maybe boss level minions, etc.
most systems also have some form of ranking system for such open world events/nms for which team is the most useful.

[Radaghast]

Outside claiming just causes problems like original EQ had where multiple guilds rushed boss mobs and whoever did the most damage got the drop. 90% of the time a GM had to intervene because the other guilds that didn't do the most damage cried about it.

[Neptune]

When you camped Valkurm Emperor for a week straight, hours on end with no drops. Then one day you log on and he is hovering right in front of you, unclaimed, you grin to yourself and begin to kill him for upwards of the 30th time and it happens, "You find a Empress Hairpin on the Valkrum Emperor." Within seconds you're screaming in your LS "OMFG I GOT IT!!!!! WOOOOO!!11!!!1!!" Your THF and NIN were good to go all the way to 70 now. Again, well worth the time and effort you put into it.

I disagree with you that it was worth the time. But that's only because I'm looking at it from the perspective of one week of your life. I know there are some gamers who are willing to game to such a degree that casting an entire week of their lives for one virtual item sounds like the best possible thing they could possibly do with their lives. I have gamed for an entire week before, but for me I'd have to have a great variety of experiences over that week.

Standing aside from judging you, I think the only time sink I support is something like Nyzul Isle weapons. Something where you have an incredible amount of challenges that are very rewarding for short term play but long term is a big time sink. Since people like you are in it long term all-in anyway, I think you should be rewarded for your time. However, it is a videogame and the idea that the best weapons in the game are reserved for only those who can put such an extraordinary amount of time in the game that it requires leaving other aspects of human life behind makes me uncomfortable. So, if you agree with me what do you propose would satisfy you long term players other than having the best gear? Is there another possible reward of your time you can think of?

Only read the OP, but as a casual player I'd love to see some type of magian trial system put into FFXIV. We have NMs, we have a huge game world with tons of monsters some people have never even seen, etc. Give us some magian trials to run to those random corners and grab some nice loot. Maybe do something like this for class-specific gear.

I think magian trials were another brilliant system in FFXI for rewarding those who liked the long term chase. Incremental tasks makes sense for incremental upgrades. I'm sure this system will make it's way to FFXIV once the game matures. It looks like we're basically getting Campaign and I suspect every system from FFXI will make its way over.

[Warlyx]

O.Kote 1/32......... !$!$!$!$!$ LAME

[MeowyWowie]

O.Kote 1/32......... !$!$!$!$!$ LAME

And they were still the best WS hands at 75 for most situations. The fact that you could obtain them at such a low level made them even better. Why shouldn't they take time to get. I used to camp deggi and domi with 2 friends often and we barely missed claim, even with all the rmt. Made tons of gil, had tons of fun, and pissed off tons of RMT (not to mention got quite a few banned for hacking.)

If you didn't feel like camping the NMs you could have bought them easily. If you weren't good at making gil, then that's another story.

To Neptune:

For me personally, I play for the gear grind so I can't really comment on why others play. I don't have as much time to play XIV as I did XI, but it's still a decent amount. But basically, besides story progression, unlocking abilities, and playing with friends, yea, gear is why I play. I just don't want it all thrown at me like it currently is, that's all.

[Vesperia]

Gear-grind is so simplistic.

Im not saying games shouldnt have it, because even in IRL people gear-grind. Um, hello, fashion much?

But the point is, the game shouldn't focus JUST on that. There are ways to make meaningful content without just dangling carrots in front of people to get them to run a treadmill for five years and milk subscriptions from it.

When I look at games like ArcheAge, there seems to be more avenues of gameplay which reward both types of player. People who invest a lot of time can still gain more than casual players, but the game design doesn't just flat-out exlude them altogether. Sure there is still gear-grind, but there is also territorial control and house-building and so on and so on. People can invest a lot of time into managing guilds and striving for supremacy/glory in this way without the feature impinging greatly on anyone else's playstyles.

If it sounds like Im going off topic, im not. You see, there are natural time-sinks and then there are imposed tink sinks. Natural time sinks come about as an incidental byproduct, like, for example, organising guilds and dealing with politics. Only a few people who play often enough can really handle the time-sink that is managing a guild efficiently. Farming resources for crafting/house-building is another natural timesink.

But when you have game-developers consciously deciding to implement time-sinks just to string players along for no other reason than to milk them for all they're worth (and perhaps give elitist no-lifers something to strive for), the game becomes exlusionary to an entire demographic, and also not very much fun even for the demographic it retains.

There are so many ways to reward people for investment than gear. Testing players' patience and using boredom as a deterrant to the best gear does not make the game an enriching experience for any of the players involved, even those who would succeed at it.

[MeowyWowie]

Gear-grind is so simplistic.

Im not saying games shouldnt have it, because even in IRL people gear-grind. Um, hello, fashion much?

But the point is, the game shouldn't focus JUST on that. There are ways to make meaningful content without just dangling carrots in front of people to get them to run a treadmill for five years and milk subscriptions from it.

When I look at games like ArcheAge, there seems to be more avenues of gameplay which reward both types of player. People who invest a lot of time can still gain more than casual players, but the game design doesn't just flat-out exlude them altogether. Sure there is still gear-grind, but there is also territorial control and house-building and so on and so on. People can invest a lot of time into managing guilds and striving for supremacy/glory in this way without the feature impinging greatly on anyone else's playstyles.

If it sounds like Im going off topic, im not. You see, there are natural time-sinks and then there are imposed tink sinks. Natural time sinks come about as an incidental byproduct, like, for example, organising guilds and dealing with politics. Only a few people who play often enough can really handle the time-sink that is managing a guild efficiently. Farming resources for crafting/house-building is another natural timesink.

But when you have game-developers consciously deciding to implement time-sinks just to string players along for no other reason than to milk them for all they're worth (and perhaps give elitist no-lifers something to strive for), the game becomes exlusionary to an entire demographic, and also not very much fun even for the demographic it retains.

There are so many ways to reward people for investment than gear. Testing players' patience and using boredom as a deterrant to the best gear does not make the game an enriching experience for any of the players involved, even those who would succeed at it.

If you've actually been following this thread you would know that gear grind is not the main focus. I simply stated why I play. Does that mean I expect everyone else to play for the same reason? No, and I also made that perfectly clear, or so I thought.

Duelle offered a suggestion borrowed from WoW, which isn't necessarily a gear grind, but acts to keep players busy. There are a number of other good suggestions as well. Why does it matter to you why others play?

Also, lol @ the elitst no-lifer comment. The same can be said for anyone that plays any amount of any video game, or spends their time on forums. It's by no means true nor does it help your argument in the slightest. Please keep this type of BS name calling out of my thread, kthx.

[Neptune]

To Neptune:

For me personally, I play for the gear grind

Gear-grind is so simplistic.

There are so many ways to reward people for investment than gear. Testing players' patience and using boredom as a deterrant to the best gear does not make the game an enriching experience for any of the players involved, even those who would succeed at it.

If you've actually been following this thread you would know that gear grind is not the main focus. I simply stated why I play. Does that mean I expect everyone else to play for the same reason? No, and I also made that perfectly clear, or so I thought.

Duelle offered a suggestion borrowed from WoW, which isn't necessarily a gear grind, but acts to keep players busy. There are a number of other good suggestions as well. Why does it matter to you why others play?

Also, lol @ the elitst no-lifer comment. The same can be said for anyone that plays any amount of any video game, or spends their time on forums. It's by no means true nor does it help your argument in the slightest. Please keep this type of BS name calling out of my thread, kthx.

In defense of Vesperia, why does it matter to him why others play? Well, it matters because what makes you happy makes him unhappy. So you have competing tastes in gameplay. There has to be a way around this.

I think you, in fact, do not play for the gear grind. You play for the sense of satisfaction after a long, memorable journey and then a greater challenge after that. I think we can all agree that that is something we all wouldn't mind being added to the game.

[MeowyWowie]

In defense of Vesperia, why does it matter to him why others play? Well, it matters because what makes you happy makes him unhappy. So you have competing tastes in gameplay. There has to be a way around this.

I think you, in fact, do not play for the gear grind. You play for the sense of satisfaction after a long, memorable journey and then a greater challenge after that. I think we can all agree that that is something we all wouldn't mind being added to the game.

That's a good way of putting it now that you mention it. I certainly do enjoy finally beating a chain of difficult missions or completing a dungeon. Though, for me, the gear grind is still a large part of it. The two usually go hand-in-hand.

And in my defense, I can say the same thing about the content Vesperia enjoys. Many people like the quick re-spawn, quickly rewarding NMs we have now. (NMs are just an example as its the only content we have at the moment.) Me? Not at all. I think of it as wasted development time because it's completed so quickly.

Don't misunderstand though. If others like it, more power to them. SE should keep adding content like this. But there's still nothing in it for me.

[Radaghast]

Problem with that content is that it's over so quickly as to be a waste of time. MMO endgame longevity is based off repeatable content whether its faction grinding, pvp, or raiding. Those NM's aren't repeatable. Once you have what you want in the miniscule amount of time it takes, it's over.