Roll Over Minutes for Tomes Please

[ninesunz]

Let me get this straight, there are ppl arguing that;

player A and player B subscribe for 1 month

player A logs in every week and collects myths for 3 weeks and gets 900 myths
player B logs in at week 3 and collects 900 myths

argument 1: player A spends more time than player B
it takes the same amount of time and effort to collect myths, just because you delay it doesn't mean you spend less time.
it is mathematically the same
okay let's say we agree that the time spent is equal and this argument is void

argument 2: implementing myth roll over will make players less likely to log in?
because that doesn't happen already on this Monday game where everyone logs in completes coil 1-4 and cap myth in a single day not taking more than 6 hours.
oh what's that? even though that does happen players are still logging in and doing other things other than myth farming? no you don't say!

argument 3: cap is there to separate the hardcore/casual
actually cap is there to extend playing content, if it was uncapped most players would be full relic everything sleep walking through coil


i think a lot of ppl are opposed to myth roll over because they think players are going to wait a month, come back and grind the month of myths they have stored. let me ask you, would you do it? go afk for a month or two, come back and grind 12+ hours myths? me, i'd rather do it slowly so i don't drive myself insane. and it wouldn't bother me if others did grind 2 months worth of myths, have a blast it doesn't affect me.

ultimate question, why does it bother you if someone did pay for 3 months go afk come back and grind 3 months worth of myths? because you spent more time than they did getting those myths? That's not correct, because you put in more effort? nope, not that either. Because they didn't play for 3 months and now they're as geared as you? but the put in the same amount time and effort to get those myths as you did! They're not logging in everyday being part of the community? They pay for the service, they use it as they see fit!

you don't go around telling ppl how to spend their time and money, why would you do otherwise in this game?

There is one argument i agree with however;
the player A who subscribes first has more potential myths, even if the player B who subscribes second is willing to put more time into the game, he can never catch up to player A. But that's a assuming player A always collects his potential myths.

in ending, i don't see this game breaking or giving an unfair advantage to any player - but that' just my opinion

[Xairos]

You are pretty much on the money.

My view is that the game already levels the playing field between dedicated players and casuals as far as numerical level is concerned (via leves and the sped up nature of story mode quest). Never in any mmo is it stated that just because you pay the same as everyone else, that you are entitled to achieve the same gear as everyone on level playing field. It has been added that under a rollover you would have to put forth the same amount of time as a dedicated player, and that isnt what im arguing against, but it still moves the goalpost of how a dedicated player separates themselves from the rest.

Now before you say that there shouldnt be a separation in the player base and that it makes for a bad community, I will propose other gaming genres where players make a name for themselves and or make a living being "better" than everyone else. Starcraft, League of Legends, Pokemon, WoW, Heathstone, DotA, Minecraft, etc. There are jerks in those communities, but many players look to the "pros" for advice and tips. I mean look at twitch, an entire website (mostly) dedicated to people watching people who dedicate time and effort to being better than the average player base. In 14 there is very little separating me from other level 50s. Other than weekdays dedicated to running AK, WP, an Prate. I imagine that outside of this forum most people who get lvl 50 would seek to get Philo gear before even considering Myth gear, so why suddenly throw myth gear at em in the form of a huge Tome Cap the second the ding 50? That's all I am proposing.

[YuriRamona]

There is one argument i agree with however;
the player A who subscribes first has more potential myths, even if the player B who subscribes second is willing to put more time into the game, he can never catch up to player A. But that's a assuming player A always collects his potential myths.

in ending, i don't see this game breaking or giving an unfair advantage to any player - but that' just my opinion

I don't think you're giving the benefits of the myth rollover enough credit and seeing the negatives of the current system.

Anyone with a real life will see this as unfair. Like I've said, there are people who, through no fault of their own, must take time away from the game. Even dedicated players have duties outside of the game. It's bad enough that lockouts exist that will bar them from keeping up with their FC and friends on Coil, CT, and EM Primals. If they had the time, they would play the game. With the rollover, you give them a chance to catch up on one of the four endgame content areas.

As it stands, dedicated players will be 4 times ahead of non-dedicated players who miss out on weekly resets (Myth, Coil, CT, and EM Primals).

You are pretty much on the money.

My view is that the game already levels the playing field between dedicated players and casuals as far as numerical level is concerned (via leves and the sped up nature of story mode quest). Never in any mmo is it stated that just because you pay the same as everyone else, that you are entitled to achieve the same gear as everyone on level playing field. It has been added that under a rollover you would have to put forth the same amount of time as a dedicated player, and that isnt what im arguing against, but it still moves the goalpost of how a dedicated player separates themselves from the rest.

Now before you say that there shouldnt be a separation in the player base and that it makes for a bad community, I will propose other gaming genres where players make a name for themselves and or make a living being "better" than everyone else. Starcraft, League of Legends, Pokemon, WoW, Heathstone, DotA, Minecraft, etc. There are jerks in those communities, but many players look to the "pros" for advice and tips. I mean look at twitch, an entire website (mostly) dedicated to people watching people who dedicate time and effort to being better than the average player base. In 14 there is very little separating me from other level 50s. Other than weekdays dedicated to running AK, WP, an Prate. I imagine that outside of this forum most people who get lvl 50 would seek to get Philo gear before even considering Myth gear, so why suddenly throw myth gear at em in the form of a huge Tome Cap the second the ding 50? That's all I am proposing.

Of course there needs to be a way to distinguish the top-tier dedicated players from the rest of the general population. As I've mentioned, Coil, CT (ilvl80, but still higher than anything below it), the upcoming EM Primal weekly lockout, and Mythology are all going to be weekly resets. Most people are okay with Coil and EM Primal lockout, and less so with CT (mostly since it's a lower content level).

The problem with the weekly reset system of mythology tomes is that, as a token system, it's meant to reward you for slamming your head against the wall spamming ilvl50-55 content (AK, WP, Garuda). I'm not really sure if there's a significant chunk of the dedicated player population who will say that their achievement of meeting the weekly myth cap consistently is proof of their skill or talent, as Coil progression is a far better indicator of endgame achievement.

If it's not actually an effective way to distinguish casual/dedicated boundary, then we should look at what else it functions to do. It encourages players to stay subscribed and log on consistently every week. And this goes back to my original argument that this is a very tall order for a substantial portion of the player population.

(If we're really concerned that we will lose subscriptions, we can always limit the allocation based on the number of weeks a player has been subscribed.)

I think it's admirable for us to want to generate a competitive tier within FFXIV that is worthy of jumping on to Twitch and Youtube, etc. Again, my point is: would you really watch a stream of someone grinding 300 tomes a week, or would you rather watch someone challenge the lower and upper turns of Coil? My suspicion is that Coil completely dwarves any potential that mythology tome grinding has at fostering a viewing and video-making community. Therefore, we can adjust the tome system freely without the dedicated player and streaming community going up in arms about the flood of casuals into their niche content. Having a flood of players decked out in mythology gear won't invalidate dedicated players who have Coil down, because it's an encounter that is 90% dependent on skill and experience, which they will still have the pioneering award on.

To your final point, I think it is much, much more discouraging to see a 300 mythology tome limit at the ding to 50 than it is to see a 4000 tome limit (or whatever it is). While the big number is intimidating, once they hit it and look above through the glass ceiling, they will be much more angry at the limitation of the weekly reset than, potentially, the daunting big number. If anything, it will spur players to reach that number. We can look at some of the ridiculous achievements in the game and the droves of players shooting for those to know that big numbers is hardly a discouragement.

[Xairos]

Yuri I will say I have enjoyed discussing this with you. Truly, non-sarcasm.

Anecdotal-ly, when I dinged 50, I focused primarily on Philo because of that being what I had in excess. After trying for weeks to beat Ifrit and Garuda in order to get a weapon in order to do AK in order to beat Titan in order to get my Relic, I by and large IGNORED myth. Sure I looked at the gear, but that was more of a puppy in the window thing. My main goal was Philo gear. I believe that this was intended.

Story Line Gear > 50 > Philo Gear > HM Ifrit and Garuda AK Gear > Relic > Myth (oops the > is meant to show progress)

I believe for an average player getting to 50, this is how they will perceive the game to be played. I wouldn't want to try to persuade them to shift toe myth just to catch up to content they very well might not care about. Coil isn't as much of a blip on the average player (not forum reader)'s mind. I think they would naturally focus on the incremental buffs from gear from WP/AK/Philo/Relic Weapon. The large number wont really scare them off, you are right about that.

But I concede that I have no data other than my own anecdote.

[YuriRamona]

Yuri I will say I have enjoyed discussing this with you. Truly, non-sarcasm.

I'm glad we're having a civil discussion. A lot of posters on here don't seem to get that we all love the game and want to make it better. So everyone is at each others' throats thinking that their opinion will lead to the downfall of the game, when the truth is that they really think their solution will do the opposite.

[Hanabira]

Why is no one in the GW2 community crying because their dailies don't roll over? They all seem to be pretty ok with the fact that if you dont log in that day and complete your tasks, you miss your credit for that day. and that's WAY more strict and time consuming than a weekly 2 hour dungeon spam.

Even WoW with its dailies.. they are just that, daily, thats more strict than this system and all you really get is some gold and some xp. Why is it that you get far more value with a much bigger span of time and people are butthurt? Maybe we should be like the other games and let you gain 45 myths a day max, no rollovers, no crying, just do it and collect your free best gear in the game.

I work 45 hour weeks, plus graduate classes, plus graduate assignments, research papers and projects, plus a social life and i still manage to complete my 300 myths and run coil. granted i dont have much time to do much else, but im not here crying that i need special treatment.

you can earn the best gear in the game by doing 10 dungeons a week. why is this too much to ask for, and why does this specific community cry foul at this sickeningly lenient system.

[Billie21]

Why is no one in the GW2 community crying because their dailies don't roll over? They all seem to be pretty ok with the fact that if you dont log in that day and complete your tasks, you miss your credit for that day. and that's WAY more strict and time consuming than a weekly 2 hour dungeon spam.

I work 45 hour weeks, plus graduate classes, plus graduate assignments, research papers and projects, plus a social life and i still manage to complete my 300 myths and run coil. granted i dont have much time to do much else, but im not here crying that i need special treatment.

you can earn the best gear in the game by doing 10 dungeons a week. why is this too much to ask for, and why does this specific community cry foul at this sickeningly lenient system.

You obviously have a "regular job" with "regular working hours", and a "regular living situation". Congratulations! you belong to the majority.

Some of us aren't that lucky (or unlucky, matter of P.O.V.). OP aparently works in the military. Which means you sometimes go away on missions for days/weeks/months. Depending on what you do in the military, you don't have normal working hours too. Or normal living arrangements.
The military is just one example, many civilian jobs have some or all of these constraints.
It's not just the job. Some people have familial/personal commitments/constraints that don't allow them to keep a "regular" gaming schedule too.

All this to say that just because someone is unable to log regularly enough too reach the weekly cap, doesn't mean they are not "making any efforts" or whatever crap are often cited in these forum to "seperate the elite" or whatever.

Yes, for some people, it is too much to ask for. Not by any lack of good will from their part. Welcome to the world of casuals, some of which actually are invested in the game, but also happen to have a RL life, too.


PS: I play GW2 too, and the dailies are not making such a big difference that you can't afford to miss one day every so often. And even though missing an entire month does put you behind, you can miss some days/weeks and still manage to fill you "monthlies" too, and not loose a lot.
In addition, in GW2 gear stats don't make much of a difference, GW2 is not gear-based, contrary to FFXIV.

[Hanabira]

You obviously have a "regular job" with "regular working hours", and a "regular living situation". Congratulations! you belong to the majority.

Some of us aren't that lucky (or unlucky, matter of P.O.V.). OP aparently works in the military. Which means you sometimes go away on missions for days/weeks/months. Depending on what you do in the military, you don't have normal working hours too.

i doubt the majority is spending an extra 30 hours a week outside of work doing school stuff. And because the value of what you obtain from myths is greater than what you obtain from gw2 dailies, you should expect stricter stipulations in return. People need to stop using the military like they are some special case. i dont care if you are an astronaut on a russian space station, if you aren't doing your points in the given timeline, tough. the world doesnt revolve around you, even if you are revolving around the world. No one can give any other examples of this request being acceptable, other than leves, which is a joke in itself.

And before anyone throws out the "well this is a game, not real life" argument thats just bound to show its face, name me even another game where this is happening with a system that gives you rewards anywhere close in value to af/relic+1. introducing an easily abused system for the sake of a small population of players getting shipped off to active duty, and an even SMALLER population of that group being butthurt about their myths is just ridiculous. OP should be thinking more about how he made it back in one piece and less about the myths he didnt get.

[Billie21]

i doubt the majority is spending an extra 30 hours a week outside of work doing school stuff. And because the value of what you obtain from myths is greater than what you obtain from gw2 dailies, you should expect stricter stipulations in return. People need to stop using the military like they are some special case. i dont care if you are an astronaut on a russian space station, if you aren't doing your points in the given timeline, tough. the world doesnt revolve around you, even if you are revolving around the world. No one can give any other examples of this request being acceptable, other than leves, which is a joke in itself.

And before anyone throws out the "well this is a game, not real life" argument thats just bound to show its face, name me even another game where this is happening with a system that gives you rewards anywhere close in value to af/relic+1. introducing an easily abused system for the sake of a small population of players getting shipped off to active duty, and an even SMALLER population of that group being butthurt about their myths is just ridiculous. OP should be thinking more about how he made it back in one piece and less about the myths he didnt get.

Well, that's the reason why I added, right after you ended my quote, that it wasn't just for people in the millitary.
My point is: a casual is not necessarily just someone who doesn't spend time in the game, but can ALSO be someone who spends time in the game, but has RL that doesn't let them play on a regular schedule.

And no, I can't give other examples in other games, because I've never experienced lockout-based games before, except for GW2's dailies and monthlies' if that even counts.


Can you tell us again how what OP suggest can be abused?

[Darkshneider]

I wouldnt mind something like this implemented,but it should be abit less than what a person actually playing would get,maybe 100myth a week?