[DEV] Time sinks and satisfaction, a plea from one of your hardcore fans

[Duelle]

in most mmos you are considered "gimp" if you don't wear "purple" gear of some sort or don't meet special requirements. That is nothing new and happens in almost every game. Or something like " we doin hardmode XXX dungeon, ABCDXXXXX required, don't bother applying if you dont have YYYY gear...

Which is fine in the context of endgame raiding. I've been part of that scene, as I was a full-time raider in WoW at one point.

FFXI used it as a cockblock in the leveling process. Not to mention it was either that or nothing, because no piece of gear ever came close to Leaping Boots or Emperor Hairpin. I wouldn't have been so against it if there had been a couple of pieces per slot that came somewhere close to fill in instead of being "super awesome stats" vs "useless piece with elemental resistances". I'll even avoid going into how the systems in XI allowed RMT to thrive, and instead of saying "maybe we designed a bad system and we should fix it" they decided to hire a group of people whose sole task is to monitor transactions in-game.

You had something to do in ffxi in every lvl, and you had many choices. Most mmos don't offer these choices.

Which doesn't mean much when the majority of the choices are the wrong ones. Farming sessions were tedious and boring. Sitting around camping NMs was boring.

It'd be one thing if you were talking about building stuff like relics, mythics or the legendaries from WoW (all of which require the LS/guild putting their efforts together to make it reality). You're asking for Leaping Lizzie and Valkurm Emperor, instead.

[Physic]

camping sucked, camping and losing pulls sucked more, the fights were easy, and usually camped by over leveled people. Gear thats good for 30 levels is bad, living at level cap forever isnt that entertaining.

Please leave the ovbious boring time sinks out of the game. You want to make a monsters that has the rarity of a two hour pop, make it something that pops claimed when you kill 2 hours worth of monsters. There would still be the exact same number of lizzies spawned, if not less, but it wouldnt be about sitting around for two hours hoping you get the pull over some one else.

time sinks that are actually just you sitting at your comp waiting to pay attention for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing again for 15 minutes are stupid.

If they want to set up competive item getting, there are much better systems, like gambling, pvp, mini games, puzzles, getting an NM pull is exciting for about 10 seconds, boring for 2-3 hours, and annoying for most of the life of the game. Thank god i got my black belt before people started selling drops, and i feel sorry for all the people who never even had a chance to fight nidhog, behemoth, and admantoise, because people spawn camped them to oblivion.

[Vesperia]

The OP sounds more like a list of problems than a list of good features.

The HQ system for crafted gear where we can create +3s depending on our own personal investment or just a NQ is one that separates the people who actually try and the people who just get lucky.

Camping a mob for ten days for one item is pretty boring, whereas running around trying to accumulate enough +3 materials for a HQ attempt is actually engaging. It also fosters community as you are constantly calling in favours etc.

But to each their own, I guess!

[Kiara]

Hi Meowy,

Good topic, and one I can empathize with you on.

I think there are valid points on both sides for what was "great" or "bad" about FF XI's HNM Camps.

While I loved the excitement at claiming Nidhogg against a bunch of other LSs, there was just as much frustration / angst / disappointment on not claiming the HNM, reflecting back and realizing you just wasted HOURS of your life with no claim. And even if you got the claim, you had a high chance of getting no drop.

I realize that's part of the "charm" of FF XI's HNMs and I certainly hate the opposite, which is what we're seeing in FF XIV. I agree with Meowy that right now in XIV, these new R30 NMs with their 2 *Minute* Respawn Times and generous drop rates, make it really... boring and kinda sad. We go in, get a kill (if no drop, then wait 2 minutes, try again and usually get it within 1 - 5 tries), and we're done.

There should be a balance, and I think Physic brought up a great example with something like Relic Weapons.

THAT was an overarching goal / time sink that really felt rewarding as you built up for it (a little too epic maybe (^_^; but still a good, long-term goal). Or multi-step Quests and Challenges with interesting Puzzles and Boss Fights, that may take multiple tries and planning, but at you feel great after beating it.

I enjoyed Sky / Kirin & Sea and Dynamis (64-player version when it first came out), and Relic Weapons. I loved *aspects* of the HNMs, but I *hated* the wasted time and loss in claims and the whole "JP server advantage"-type arguments that came out of that, or Bot Claims, etc.

So, I definitely vote "YES!" to overarching, grand, long-term Goals and Content. Stuff to allow those that want to invest the time to work towards. But probably not 24 Hour Respawning HNMs that would probably be overcamped and overclaimed with today's advanced Bot programming.

[Mack]

Ok I like Kiara's idea or whoever mentioned it first. I don't care for specifically long NM spawns, just something that takes a long time to accomplish, is fun, and is rewarding at the end and because of its longevity and difficulty in obtaining it it makes it unique to some degree as well.

[Sephr]

I think I'd prefer having HNMs similar to WoTG's, which could pop in lots of different zones but on fairly long timers. They'd obviously have to have a lot of different locations they could spawn, they'd have to be able to roam a lot and there'd have to be quite a few of them.

Might make for a more spontaneous feel.

[MeowyWowie]

You're asking for Leaping Lizzie and Valkurm Emperor, instead.

I think I speak for many hard core gamers when I say this: We don't care how something is obtained. We just want something to invest our time into. FFXI did some things well and some not so well. There's plenty of room for improvement.

The OP sounds more like a list of problems than a list of good features.

The HQ system for crafted gear where we can create +3s depending on our own personal investment or just a NQ is one that separates the people who actually try and the people who just get lucky.

Camping a mob for ten days for one item is pretty boring, whereas running around trying to accumulate enough +3 materials for a HQ attempt is actually engaging. It also fosters community as you are constantly calling in favours etc.

But to each their own, I guess!

Item's don't have to be accessible only one way. They could have Rare/Ex version drop of NMs and normal, tradable versions come from something like BCNMs. If NMs aren't your thing then you can farm the seals (for lack of better word) for the BCNM. Or spend your time making some gil to buy it. You'd essentially be doing the same thing as farming HQ mats for a +3 synth.

FFXI did this down the road and it helped alleviate the overcrowding on certain NMs. Again, there's plenty of room for improvement.

To recap on Kiara's post and Physic's idea, this is what we want. Being a former Mandau owner myself, I have to say it was probably the most rewarding thing I accomplished in that game. It was a long term goal that kept you occupied for at least 6 months. For many the process took up to 2 years. But it was still accessible to everyone. Though I think goals like this are better suited for end game items, more specifically "the best of the best," simply because of the enormous time investment involved. But that's not to say they can't be used for earlier content, as long as the reward holds its value over time.

The materia system they're working on now seems to be a good concept to keep us busy for a while and I hope we see more things like this. It doesn't matter what form of content it is, as long as there's some things that take time to work for we'll be happy. Make it accessible to everyone, but don't just throw loot at us like it's Christmas morning every day. It gets boring very quickly.

[Totobi]

Aside from the fact that many of the best items in FFXI lasted for levels upon levels, they also remained the best option for a number of classes together. For example, when you finally got Homam Hands, your PLD DRK and THF all obtained their best TP hands at the same time. Well worth the time and effort you put into getting them. The sense of satisfaction that came with it always seemed like a huge achievement. When you camped Valkurm Emperor for a week straight, hours on end with no drops. Then one day you log on and he is hovering right in front of you, unclaimed, you grin to yourself and begin to kill him for upwards of the 30th time and it happens, "You find a Empress Hairpin on the Valkrum Emperor." Within seconds you're screaming in your LS "OMFG I GOT IT!!!!! WOOOOO!!11!!!1!!" Your THF and NIN were good to go all the way to 70 now. Again, well worth the time and effort you put into it.

The same can be said for nearly everything in the game. There was a reason the best stuff took so much time to obtain. Nothing could compare to the satisfaction you felt when you finally got your hands on it. Byakko's Haidate, Optical hat, Kraken Club, E. Body, Relic weapons, the list goes on and on. There was always new goals for you to complete, and you knew that if you kept at it you would be handsomely rewarded. You wore that gear proudly as you walked through town. It represented the dedication you put into obtaining it. And in turn it further added to your reputation, if that was something you cared about.

HOW FUN AND EXCITING. I really hope they keep that kind of stuff away from FFXIV, what did you REALLY accomplish? You wasted a week doing absolutely nothing but camp an NM that is easy to kill, i'd rather see NM's that are DIFFICULT TO KILL - not be a major waste of time.

[Synapse]

They should implement HNM type of mobs with atleast 12hr respawn, either that or make the respawn less and make the drop rate less as well, like 5%. why? when you see rest of the server wearing same epic gears as you, there is a no feel of uniqueness. HNM in FFXI had 21-24hrs and 48-72 hr respawn, but thats what made the item they drop rare and unique, having these 5 min repop timers and high drop rate pretty much like handing everyone the item.

Instances, these shouldnt be everywhere, like HNMs/NMs shouldn't bet instanced, whats the point of killing something in an MMO when no one knows that you killed it or how you killed it, all the struggle and saves from wiping. Even the players who are in the fight, do the fight properly because they have an audience, and also under pressure to do it properly or have the claim lost to someone else.

[Duelle]

I think I speak for many hard core gamers when I say this: We don't care how something is obtained. We just want something to invest our time into. FFXI did some things well and some not so well. There's plenty of room for improvement.

Again, you can focus on long-term projects like relic weapons (and believe me, I was fine knowing that I would never in my life see Excalibur or Murgleis in my inventory). Make it not require ridiculous amounts of currency but build off drops from dungeons or something like that.

Instances, these shouldnt be everywhere, like HNMs/NMs shouldn't bet instanced, whats the point of killing something in an MMO when no one knows that you killed it or how you killed it, all the struggle and saves from wiping.

Not necessarily. You can put an HNM in an instance with a seven day lock-out after being killed. All open world mobs do is create needless drama and competition. Instances at least put failure directly on you and your group instead of it being that you had the slower claim bot.