SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[Seobit]

Your pet is the biggest individual source of damage you get in this game as a SMN. By definition that makes it your primary offensive tool.

[Allyrion]

Your pet is the biggest individual source of damage you get in this game as a SMN. By definition that makes it your primary offensive tool.

I think he means that even if the damage from the pet is significant, the gameplay interaction with the pet is very limited. The pet is mostly passive damage.
The combat design is mostly focused on working with dots rather than the Summon itself. To be honest, I was hoping for a really innovative approach with the summons and perhaps a whole new type of class.

On the other side, I think it's pointless to whine about it at this point. There's no way they're going to scrap the SMN now or rename it.
That's really the main problem with these threads since beta. They are so adamant that SMN needs a complete revamp cause it didn't meet their initial expectation. It's juvenile, really.
Despite what they think, SE worked hard on the overall job even if you believe if borrows from another class in a different game. It takes a lot to implement and balance any class within a game. There is no way they are going to scrap it.

Why not just ask for more interesting SMN interaction as the game gets expanded upon?
Who would even disagree with you if you did? If the community generally agrees as well, the designers can then keep it in mind going forward.
The class at launch doesn't need to be what it ends up as.

I'm sorry if there's a sense of urgency involved making the SMN more about the Summons, but you're not going to get anywhere acting like the sky is falling until that point.
And you have to work with the established base design.
SMN also fills a niche of a sustained single target caster with multi-target capability. As more jobs are released, it will not have to be pushed into this role.

Side-note:
Talking about Warlocks. WoW's revamp of Demonology Warlocks would actually work quite well here. Though it is still dot based, you would have phases of burst by transforming into the demon.
Instead, SMN could have dot phases but also one where they interact with an empowered summon. Something like FFX and FF13's use of controlling summon's actions.
The current abilities would change while under this effect, which is how you can add to a design without scrapping the last one or having button/ability bloat.

[Panteleon]

Side-note:
Talking about Warlocks. WoW's revamp of Demonology Warlocks would actually work quite well here. Though it is still dot based, you would have phases of burst by transforming into the demon.
Instead, SMN could have dot phases but also one where they interact with an empowered summon. Something like FFX and FF13's use of controlling summon's actions.
The current abilities would change while under this effect, which is how you can add to a design without scrapping the last one or having button/ability bloat.

That sounds entertaining. A whole new mechanic as the pet struggles to control the player with a pet bar, dodging floor AOE, etc. Meanwhile, tag a few new skills into the empowered summon and up the damage, make the player action bar switch out for the summon's actions entirely.

[Crevox]

Wasn't a big fan of Demonology warlock personally (though it was the most fun spec) simply because, again, it focused more on you than the pet. It made your pet slightly stronger, but besides that it was a new rotation focused on you becoming a demon. The sad thing is hunter pets were still stronger.

[Synovius]

This is not the only class suffering from a weak class issue, for example I also find BLM pointless vs THM, while THM brings in a solid set of skills BLM only adds some -very situational- skills with almost 0 synergy with the base class skills, it feels like they just rolled a dice and thrown in some random skills. I really hope they will listen and actually overhaul SMN and BLM job skills.

Convert, Manawall, and Flare are situational? I can tell you from experience that I use all three of these VERY regularly. In fact, I would go as far as to say that at least Manawall and Flare are crucial. I'll give you that Apocostasis and Freeze are borderline useless although I do sometimes use Apoc on Twintania to help with Fireball damage.

[pandabearcat]

If I could play a WoW warlock here, I would be much more in love with my summoner. I would immediately come back and play this game.

I think people can draw similarities between classes here and in WoW, but regardless of your feelings for the game, there is no comparison between WoW's class design and FF14's.

WoW is a world class MMO and its mechanics are far more fun. I would kill to actually play an affliction lock. If you look at the differences between this game and WoW, the fact that almost every class has a secondary resource (or at least a fun one), is a huge difference, as well as the fact that hey, look, there are actually procs in WoW as opposed to the 4 procs that exist in FF14, spread over 2 classes. While in WoW almost every ability has some interaction with another ability, or recharges or consumes a resource, and each class has at least 4 procs, let alone amongst classes.

Also tanking in this game has got to be the most boring thing in existence. Granted, WoW tanking was like that for the longest time as well, same with WoW healing when it was all about throughput before. Now its shifted to the many, many different healing tools that we have (as opposed to, two healers that are almost identical), and the fact that its less about tanks being spiked down in 2 seconds and more about using the right heal at the right time.

That being said, demo lock would be an interesting direction for summoners to go, esp if different summons granted you different forms (or powers while in those forms).

This represents a huge shift in the FF14 philosophy (well thats not the right word, but I mean general concept of how combat is done) though, and unless there is a drastic overhaul combat will continue to be, in the words of my friend, "a DDR game", while you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the extremely long GCD.

2.5 second GCD has got to be one of the worst ideas ever. Furthermore, capping resource on DPS, with no ability to regen it actively (no invig doesn't count, unless your idea of active is using an ability every 2 minutes), leads to frustration and boring gameplay. No it is not "skillfull" to have to only use your most efficient abilities. No it is not skillful, nor is it fun, to cut out my skills or stop AoEing or actually sit there and do nothing.

Sorry about the rant, I guess it was a bit off topic.

But yes, if we actually played like affliction warlocks (we're not, we're like level 2 affliction warlocks, except oh wait, even level 2 warlocks have more fun abilities than we do, and an actual resource), I would be tremendously happy. But since we're not, my love for this game is rapidly waning =(

As a side note, my point was that copying from something that is proven to be good is MUCH better than coming up with something "unique" that sucks. And frankly, its much more efficient to imitate.

Everyone (well, a lot of the naysayers) is already saying they made a WoW clone. Well, I'd rather it be a GOOD WoW clone than the half assed one it is right now.

[ZDamned]

So, I am not replying to anyone in particular here, I just figured I would give my thoughts.

I am in agreement that this class is totally lacking any sort of interest, I am struggling to level up my Arcanist, and I have 5 other Classes at 50.

I thought I would reflect back on all the ways that Summoner has been used in previous FF games, and see if I can propose another way of using the class that may feel more active, or interesting, while sticking with how Squaresoft/Square-Enix has presented us the Job in the past.

FF III: Summoner/Evoker - Think Black Mage with Only AOE Spells. High Cost, High Damage. The Summon was a single cast.

FF IV: Rydia/Caller - Summons were a single cast spell, All targets, High MP Cost, HEAVY damage. (Bahamut!) Some times a Curative buff as well.
They gave some of the characters in this game Dual Jobs, Such as White Mage/Ranger, and in this case, Rydia was a Black Mage/Summoner. The way you utilized this effectively, was to Manage Rydia's MP with spell casts that were relevant. Don't over Nuke with a Summon, use a Black Magic. and such.

FF V: All summons were a Damage Spell that were All targets, and High MP Cost. (Noticing a pattern here?)

FF VI: Espers were a totally new way to look at Summoning. One time use per character, per fight, but same style as FF III/V. Single Cast, All Targets, High Cost Nuke/Buff.

FF VII: Summon Materia early on, acted like the All Target Linked Black Magic spells. Ifrit was basically Fire 2 + ALL built into 1 Materia. But the MP cost was, again, huge.
Later on, of course we all probably remember how agonizingly powerful/Long winded Knights of the Round was. But realistically Summons were still the same pattern as the previous games.
Single Cast, High MP Cost, All Target Nuke spells/Buffs.

FF VIII: I didn't play this game long enough to speak form personal experience, HOWEVER! I do like the concept from what I have read. (For an MMO at least.)
This is highly different from the first 5 Iterations of the job, and doesn't get returned to until FF X.

FF IX: Garnet, and Eiko - Summons in this game has the same exact usage as they did for Rydia in FF IV, with 1 additional bonus. Trance Casts. Trance versions of the Summon had additional effects, the most memorable to me personally was Bahamut, as he stuck around, and just out of nowhere attacks again for full power, until the battle ends. (I literally solo'd the final boss of the Story line with Garnet ONLY because of Trance Bahamut + Auto Regen)
If the Limit Break system is ever expanded, I would love to see something like this for Summoners.
but to Re-Cap: Single Cast, All Target, High Cost Nuke/Buff.

FF X: TOTAL Job Re-Imagining. Summons replaced your party when cast, and you were now in complete control of them for the duration of their HP/MP. Which ever ran out first.
Persistent after the Cast, Party Replacement, Low Cost (Since you only "pay" for them once, unless Yojimo!) High Damage.

FF XI: Summoner became a Pet class in this game. And in all my time playing, the Ruby Never once dropped for me. =(

FF XIII: Summons acted as Limit Breaks, and stuck around just the same way they did in FF X.

So, after all that, it seems more like Summoner in MOST of the games is typically an AOE Black Mage with High Burst Damage, but not much in the path of Utility, or MP efficiency. And I never once see anything DoT related, unless you look at XI.

My thought would be to re-work the Summoner Job to be a Hybrid between FF IX and FF X.
Have some of the Summon's act as Damage Spells similarly to Black Mage, which cause different Aether Effects Akin to Astral Fire/Umbral Ice, but not so blatantly Copied.
I would consider making them a series of effects that Empower your next summon like,

Ifrit - Aether Blaze I/II/III: Your next Summon Adds an additional "X" Potentcy over 30 Seconds DoT. EG Ifrit Re-Cast would be a Fire DoT, but Sheeva would be an Ice DoT

Sheeva - Aether Shatter I/II/III: Your next Summon causes an a Vaulnerability to Elemental Damage of the type dealt. (Synergize with Black Mage as well)

Titan - Aether Earth I/II/III:
-----------------------------------
Then for the some conversely interesting effects, Have the Primal actually stay persistent If cast with it's own Aether Element at the 3rd Stack.

At this point, the player swaps places with the Primal, and you take direct control of them Primal for a short period of time. Either 1 - 3 minutes. This can open up a plethora of Party wide buffs, or unique play styles.

Thats my 2gil. =)

[Omagana]

Why is Contagion so good? Because it's +15 seconds to all your dots. Multiply the DoT potency of each dot by 5 (they each tick 5 more times), add them all up, and Contagion is effectively a nuke of its own that hits for that much potency

This implies you have 15 seconds of dot down time without garuda, which is not true. The only dps you are gaining from contagion is the time saved in having to reapply dots slightly less often.

If someone has already pointed this out, ignore. I didn't read through 40 odd pages.

[pandabearcat]

To be fair to Contagion, while it only gives you ~2-3 GCD's per cast, it also saves you quite a large amount of mp.

[Darkkos]

This implies you have 15 seconds of dot down time without garuda, which is not true. The only dps you are gaining from contagion is the time saved in having to reapply dots slightly less often.

If someone has already pointed this out, ignore. I didn't read through 40 odd pages.

What about Contagion followed by Bane? You save 1 AetherFlow (More or less) and you can use a Fester instead of reapplying Dot then Bane.. So yeah extra dmg