Is asking a tank to use his enmity+ buff rude?

[Kaonis]

It's not rude to ask. If a tank isn't in their tank stance they either forgot from a death or just changed jobs (I've been there several times), or they are just bad. Especially if you are ripping threat off them so easily.

[Gamemako]

I disagree, but it depends on the party.

One cast of Holy will do as much damage as you do over an entire pull from Sword Oath. The loss of just one GCD alone to additional healing from Sword Oath makes it disadvantageous. I will try to show this mathematically.

Let's assume you need 4 uses of Flash in Shield Oath to maintain aggro through the pull. Because the full 50% from Shield Oath is given (Flash is not damage-based), this is 6 Flashes in Sword Oath, a loss of 5 DPS-seconds. We will assume 6 targets for the purpose of this analysis.

Shield Oath potency per second: (150 + 200 + 260)/7.5 + 100/3 + 6*250/25 + 300/30 = 184.67 base * 0.8 = 147.73 potency per second
Sword Oath potency per second: (150 + 200 + 260)/7.5 + 100/3 + 6*250/25 + 300/30 + 50/2.32 = 206.22 potency per second

DPS gain per second: 0.400 DPS-seconds per second

Time to equivalence: 17.5 seconds

Assume 40-second encounter duration (probably overestimate). Total DPS gain: 9 DPS-seconds -- 1329.57 potency.
WHM holy: 240 potency * 6 opponents * 1.3 maim & mend * 1.1 cleric stance * ~1.4 stat and weapon damage differences = 2882.88 potency.

If WHM loses just one GCD to healing, you're well behind in total DPS.

This isn't the most exacting analysis, but it should give you a good idea of why Shield Oath is a better option for mob situations. Start in it and stay in it. When it comes to bosses... well, that jelly does probably 200 DPS and you need no Flash, so over the duration, healer loses one GCD per 25 seconds. PLD gains 10 DPS-seconds in that much time, or around 1350 potency. Holy would be less than 500 against one target. Either way, Sword Oath wins out in situations with few targets and low damage rates.

//EDIT:

How much does Sword Oath actually add for total Dmg?

I've had the occasional PLD want to "make the run faster" but given how much extra time I have to spend out of cleric stance healing them I question whether the net increase is actually positive.

Sword Oath adds 50 potency per autoattack. In total, it is 40-45% more DPS over Shield Oath depending on the number of opponents (inversely proportional due to CoS contribution).

[PArcher]

I am assuming you are using DF, maybe PUGs, not running with an FC or friends in an organized way

To me, if you're going to DF, you should be playing your class at least to its minimum, and as is "expected". Not trying to go DPS as a tank or heal (DPS priority over tanking/healing), speed-running without asking first, etc.

If you're running in a group and lay down the ground-rules, go ahead and do what you want. But DFs/PUGs and not saying anything? No

[WingsofWar]

I am assuming you are using DF, maybe PUGs, not running with an FC or friends in an organized way

To me, if you're going to DF, you should be playing your class at least to its minimum, and as is "expected". Not trying to go DPS as a tank or heal (DPS priority over tanking/healing), speed-running without asking first, etc.

If you're running in a group and lay down the ground-rules, go ahead and do what you want. But DFs/PUGs and not saying anything? No

I had this happen to me the other day in DF WP, some BLM was telling me to pull more. Something i'm not comfortable with especially since nobody said anything about a speedrun, but I figured hey, why not give it a shot and switched to shield oath. I pulled 1 next mob up, and died. I'm at 6k HP and i found myself trying to blow CDs to survive cuz i was hovering at 1-10% HP and eventually lost aggro. Healer kept saying i'm doing something wrong because "they never had this much trouble keeping a tank alive" or "You're a +1 hold hate you idiot tank". I dunno, with how GCD is and how much emnity/ps i can generate i don't really think i can do more skill wise.

[Giantbane]

Running WP in the DF, I always ask groups how they want to run it: multiple groups at once or one at a time. If we're doing multiple groups I keep defiance up at all times. For 1 group at a time runs, I run without Defiance. If the healer doesn't feel confident enough to handle more than one group at a time, then they're probably not going to be able to handle swapping in and out of cleric stance to DPS a whole lot either. My single pull runs have been significantly faster after I started doing this (down to about ~20-22min on average).

[Zakalwe]

I still have trouble with aggro once in a while in AK/WP in DF. Im a PLD+1 with mostly i90/70 mixed gear. Sometimes I get party members who complain that i'm not holding aggro when I pull big. Well Flash can only do so much and I can only do combos to a single target every 7-9 seconds or so. making a pull of 7-10 mobs difficult to hold against a Big AOE attacks. Sometimes i get a healer who cant keep me alive enough for even medium pulls, so i switch to Shield Oath and blow CDs, which lowers my enmity/ps and i still get cursed at because 1 mob starts targeting a dps or healer. Normally I'm in sword oath to make the most out of my job except in coil or titan.

I still struggle with hate in these scenarios which lately is happening a lot particularly with very impatient people wanting the quickest possible speedrun.

You're the tank, you should set the pace (as long as you aren't out pulling your healer's healing ability or your aggro ability).

[Vortok]

If you're the healer, and the tank is fairly spiky/getting hit hard, it's perfectly reasonable for you to ask them to not make you pick up all the slack just because they want to see slightly higher dps numbers.

Then again, groups wanting to be as mindless as possible by throwing all the work of an overgeared dungeon at the healer (because hey, we overgear it, let's play sloppy!) is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Everyone gets an easier time as they gear up except the healers.

It's just like using sleep in dungeons. If it's a BLM spamming sleep, I'll usually wake it up on purpose (less sleep, moar deeps - I'll mark for it if I want something slept). If the WHM/SCH wants stuff slept, try to respect their request and leave it asleep.

[Maqaqa]

If for any reason you are overgearing content and yet single-pulling, then it makes sense to stay in a DD stance (running CM/prae in i90 gear for example)... doesnt make sense for any other scenario.
Theres a good chance you just met a newbie on the DF.

[ArnyDahaka]

Its possible I'm wrong here but I was under the impression that the + Enmity from Shield Oath doesn't actually GAIN us any enmity, it simply makes up for the damage reduction element on Shield Oath.

I was actually under the same impression. I saw a post around here somewhere a while back with some math that actually indicated that your threat generation went up in Sword Oath. I'll see if I can dig it up.


Edit: Bah, couldn't find it

[Maqaqa]

Its possible I'm wrong here but I was under the impression that the + Enmity from Shield Oath doesn't actually GAIN us any enmity, it simply makes up for the damage reduction element on Shield Oath.

You are right. Same for Defiance.