You can't get into Coil cause they are looking for experienced players only?

[Shioban]

I'd firstly like to note, as long as you can hear the VoIP program this is better than nothing for the most part, as long as your group can relay information to you over voice, they'll be happier, even if you can't speak to them.

Forcing use of VoIP is discriminating needlessly against players who...

That's the problem, to do The Binding Coil of Bahamut (TBC) efficiently you need to be able to communicate with your group quickly, which is the difference between a win and a wipe.

This is NOT about discrimination, if a group advertises that they want their players to use VoIP that is their choice.

Everyone understands that there are deaf people in the world and that deaf people play FFXIV, that is a fact.

Another fact, is that The Binding Coil of Bahamut is very difficult Turns 4 & 5 more-so. To effectivly communicate information, orders, suggestions, tactics VoIP is the best choice. You simply don't have the time to type in Turns 4-5 for the most part.

In the literal term of the word it isn't 'necessary', but if a group wants to achieve a smooth win they're going to need it. The best groups so far can communicate easily with each other and play well together in general.

If seven people can use VoIP and the eigth person can't, Turns 1-3 this isn't a problem you can easily use macro's and <se.x> commands to convey a message quickly, Turns 4-5 this becomes rather difficult. There's a lot to focus and concentrate on doing and reading a chat-log ontop of that becomes quick cumbersome.

It is VERY frustrating for a group of seven people to be able to communicate something and the eighth not being able hear because they don't have or can't use VoIP, it really is the difference between a win and a wipe.



Life is unfair and not everything is 'just' and perfect. There are groups i'm sure that will run with VoIP, but slapping a 'Bad People' sticker on people who want to use the content as it was originally intended (Yoshi-P himself stated VoIP will be pretty nessecary) you can't toss the blame.



TL;DR : The Binding Coil of Bahamut is difficult, it's frustrating when one or two people can't be communicated with. People aren't trying to discriminate, they're simply playing the game as it was intended to be played.

Just like the Producer/Director stated many times, one of the occasions was even on the forums below;

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post544090

Quote Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida View Post
Hi all, it’s ‘coming down with the flu’ Yoshida here,

Thanks for the discussion regarding voice chat. I wanted to present my thoughts on the subject, too.

Conclusion
We currently have no plans to implement voice chat into FFXIV, even for Version 2.0.

Level of Communication
I’m also an online gamer when I have spare time, so I use voice chat when playing MMOs, online games, FPSs, and fighting games. However, voice chat is mostly used by the “hardcore players”. In MMORPGs, “chat” is the main form of communication and because it is text based it is fairly simple to use. However, hearing everyone’s voices when you’re communicating amongst a huge group of players can be highly irritating. Risks put aside, I think that the communication level in comparison to chat is a few steps higher.

Pros and Cons
Everyone pretty much said everything already.

The main cons:
• There will be times when voice chat will be mandatory for things like instanced raids.
• In particular, there is a fear that female gamers will get harassed when the say something and will then want to stay away.
• A gap will appear between those that have/don’t have a mic.
• As this will eat up more bandwidth, there will be more bandwidth costs.
• We will need to create some kind of sound management, like creating an effect so that it's not your “real voice” that is being heard.

The main pros:
• It is much faster than chat for direct communication so when playing as a party it is much easier.
• If you can get along well with the other person, it is convenient, just like being on the phone.

Alternatives to Voice Chat
There are loads of great alternatives to voice chat such as Skype and Ventrillo. If we don’t officially support it, I think that there will be fewer cases where people will be forced to use it and told things like "come on, just use voice chat for crying out loud!" So for linkshells and what will become the Free Companies, if you can come to an agreement, I think that it would be good to consider using external software for voice chat purposes.

Summary
We will continue to make it so that our FFXIV players can play safely across all regions. Even if we can technically support it, for things that involve communication, we would have to make it official, but I think we would really need to think about this carefully so it won't be a stressful experience. So with that in mind, we will not be having official support for voice chat.

[ispano]

Shio, you may wish to re-read why some of those items are listed where they are. One in particular is listed under cons, as in one of Yoshi/SE's reasons for NOT having voice chat is some players will try to require it. And if it's an official VC, they have more leverage due to it being official and people will infer suggested to use. That whole post you quoted actually hurts your argument.

SE themselves do Coil without VC.

My personal issues with VC are two things. One is people just blabbing BS during the raid, but this boils down to finding other people to play with. The other one, while the same can be done, is a bit harder because it's more widespread. People get used to it and use it as a crutch. Many get to the point where they don't notice things, easily noticed no less, unless someone else tells them via VC.

[Zfz]

It's discrimination alright, just that it is everyday discrimination that we are all used to.

You know when you shout "looking for BRD+BLM"? You're discriminating against the other classes because they aren't able to provide you with the benefits you want.

Same as requiring voice chat.
Same as requiring experience.
Same as requiring a certain language.

There's nothing wrong with it, though. We discriminate so we can all enjoy our gaming time. It arises out of differences in circumstances and needs between players, and we shouldn't make a big deal out of it.

There's a problem though that I've noticed. People generally don't like to lead a raid, yet they expect others to just lead. It's rare to put together a party and everyone knows their job. Almost always someone expects you to explain fights or assign duties. Healers can't work it out between themselves, they have to ask you who's gonna do what. Tanks can't have a look at each other's gear and just know who's gonna main tank. They expect you to tell them what to do even if it's pretty obvious what each of them should be doing.

Then there's those who don't seem to be able to play the game themselves. They need others to remind them to move out of the fire, to switch targets, etc. And if you don't do that, you're not a good raid leader.

That is really what's making a lot of people shy away from forming their own parties. And hence the complaint that "everyone" only wants experienced people. There are plenty of people who would join an inexperienced raid. Although there truely are very few people willing to go in blind (without reading up on strategy). For most of them this is not a game, just something that gives them satisfaction (gear, growth). Sad but we have to live with it.

[SarcasmMisser]

The whole process of advertising for and accepting pugs is an exercise in discrimination, and I personally discriminate against players who I feel aren't what we're looking for.

It's really the right of people who decided to form their own group with their own expectations, and there is nothing stopping people forming their own groups with their own expectations.

[Ryock]

Agree with the OP 100%. For those of you having trouble. While I can't entirely speak for anyone else, I can speak for myself when I say that there were two coil groups who wanted me for their static groups(and I'm a warrior, we all know what that means). I was actually genuinely surprised. I was perfectly honest with them, and expressed how I was only able to brush up on the knowledge of the fight due to videos, but had no real-time experience. They were very understanding in the matter, and as the OP said, they wanted me in their FC and linkshell. I was more than happy to join with them, and we're close to clearing T2 now. I was fortunate to run into two groups of good people(who btw were both from the same FC).

[ispano]

Agree with the OP 100%. For those of you having trouble. While I can't entirely speak for anyone else, I can speak for myself when I say that there were two coil groups who wanted me for their static groups(and I'm a warrior, we all know what that means). I was actually genuinely surprised. I was perfectly honest with them, and expressed how I was only able to brush up on the knowledge of the fight due to videos, but had no real-time experience. They were very understanding in the matter, and as the OP said, they wanted me in their FC and linkshell. I was more than happy to join with them, and we're close to clearing T2 now. I was fortunate to run into two groups of good people(who btw were both from the same FC).

Yup, if you're good at what you do... or one of the few who are good at everything, people will find YOU.

[Shioban]

Shio, you may wish to re-read why some of those items are listed where they are. One in particular is listed under cons, as in one of Yoshi/SE's reasons for NOT having voice chat is some players will try to require it. And if it's an official VC, they have more leverage due to it being official and people will infer suggested to use. That whole post you quoted actually hurts your argument.

SE themselves do Coil without VC.

My personal issues with VC are two things. One is people just blabbing BS during the raid, but this boils down to finding other people to play with. The other one, while the same can be done, is a bit harder because it's more widespread. People get used to it and use it as a crutch. Many get to the point where they don't notice things, easily noticed no less, unless someone else tells them via VC.

He's right in saying VoIP can be a con in that people make it mandatory, but when you create content like this it becomes mandatory in itself, if plays can't communicate with each other quickly enough they will go to VoIP instead, which is precicely what happened with The Binding Coil, its just the way it is with instanced raids.

I don't feel it completely hurts my argument otherwise I wouldn't have bothered posting it, Yoshi was defending both sides of the fence in that he's worried people will make it mandatory which was going to happen regardless when you introduce content like this, but on the other side he mentions that the content becomes considerably easier when you're able to communicate effectively.

In FFXI and FFXIV 1.23 we didn't need VoIP, the pace was slow enough to allow us to type, that simply doesn't exist in certain parts of The Binding Coil of Bahamut which is founded upon being able to communicate with your party.

I don't know who you're doing The Binding Coil with, but the reason we did so well was because we had the ability to freely talk and enjoy ourselves and then when it came to actually getting stuff done we quietened down and used it for its intended purpose to effectively issue orders/commands.

It's not a crutch it's an aid. It's simply easier to simply say "Grab that rook again Shio" instead of having to stop to type it out. I've never noticed anyone getting lazy simply because they didn't have to type out a macro for High Voltage or Conflags.


For the most part this raid is less of a gear check and more of a communication check, at least that's what we've experience so far.



I really do hope though that for people who really cannot use VoIP are able to find or form groups in a similar circumstance, but for the majority regardless of how I present any side of the argument, people WILL want VoIP for instanced raids like this now and in the future.

[ispano]

Actually what he meant is that people will use the fact that it's built into the game and as such, intended to be used to try and force people to use it.

And sorry, people do use it as a crutch. Not everyone, but many do. If they don't have VC they come in with this idea that content cannot be done without it. Or that it's to much of a pain with out it. That's the crutch right there. I see it all the time. An example is double paladins doing High Voltage. They tell each other when they've used their Spirits. If they don't hear the other person say they used it, they don't use theirs on the next. Again, this doesn't happen to everyone, but I see it happen all the time. I understand the usefulness of VC, but that doesn't stop me from seeing the flaws. Those flaws are there no matter how people want to say they aren't.

[Jonny_Tapas]

Here's what I did:

/shout LFM Coil T1 first timers party come just to check it out!

Filled my party in less than 20 minutes.

Killed ADS after about an hour.

Exited... linked a Cadeuceus vid for my PT to check out.

Killed Cadeuceus after about an hour and opened me some boxes!

Only had to rep 2 players the entire time.

Tons of players are itching for that first time. You don't expect to win on your first try... neither do they! Get some noobs together, go in there and have some fun. Gain some experience!

[Nitros]

Never watched a Video and learned by watching the rest.

Getting into Coil without having watched a video before in a group where the rest of the members know the mechanic is one of the rudest things one can do in this game. I sincerely hope that you have a terrible experience and don't enjoy the game.