Yep, its too much. They're going to buff warriors too much if those changes go live

[MBTL90]

It's not anywhere near that bad.

Shield Oath and Defiance are basically equal in terms of mitigation now (so the Higher HP pool doesn't count for anything - it's just WAR's "Shield Oath").

The cooldown-versus-cooldown issue is what it comes down to:

+ Inner Beast is basically -20% damage every ~22-24 seconds for 6 seconds. Not counting Infuriate.
+ Vengence is -30% damage for 15s every 120s. Unlike Inner Beast, it can be used before you start hitting something in order to weather Alpha Strikes.
+ Holmgang is a "can't be one-shot" ability - you can still be damaged to 1HP

+ Rampart is -20% damage every 90s for 20s
+ Sentinel is -40% every 180s for 10s
+ Bulwark is +60% block every 180s for 15s
+ Hallowed Ground is a true Invulnerability ability - you will stay at 100% HP for the duration

Each class will have a damage debuff in one of their weaponskills.

Then you have the extra 10% Healing from Convalescence, versus the extra 15s duration from Bloodbath and 25% higher uptime on Foresight.

And the Shield Blocks, and situational debuffs like GCD Stun, Blinds and Silences.

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Effectively, Paladins still have the edge in damage mitigated over time. On Average PLD's Shield Blocks will directly counter WAR's -20% damage from Inner Beast, but Blocks can't be relied upon to proc exactly when you want them to, so the other active cooldowns are for the "oh crap" moments.

In "real game" situations, it might well be that the low cooldown on Inner Beast is enough to push WAR into the "desired" role for certain boss fights where there is a scripted "single big hit" coming on a timer that is more regular than PLDs cooldowns allow for (every ~45 seconds you can have either Bulwark, Sentinel or Rampart up... with Conv and Foresight to fill in when needed or Hallowed in Emergencies) but on average PLD will still have higher mitigation over time. PLD can also stack more mitigation up all at once for extreme emergencies, and generate AoE enmity for longer (due to MP regen from Riot Blade and Flash, versus Overpower's severe TP drain). PLD also still has that Silence, GCD Stun and AoE Blind.

Bottom line, when played skillfully WAR is going to become "more efficient" than PLD for certain content, but WAR + PLD are both going to be viable tanks, and be a very very attractive combo.

The classes are close now, but on the content that matters, I'd much rather have the burst mitigation that Inner Beast provides. The only thing paladin really has that is better than the war is the ability to jam all their cd's at once, which almost never happens because you usually need to spread out your cds for multiple different attacks. When this happens, there is always dead periods where you have to rely on bulwark/foresight, because your real cds, rampart/sentinel, are on CD. Wars will never have this issue. They will always have a CD equal to pallies second best, on demand.
Even Hallowed ground, although better on activation than holmgang, has over double the CD of holmgang.

[Leiron]

Holmgang will probably get an extended CD to compensate for its change.
I cannot understand why people are up in arms given that this will mean War/PLD will be a stronger combo than the previous PLD/PLD.

[Vmage]

Nobody listened.

why didn't you take the hint...

the argument was never "It's impossible to tank turn 1/turn4/turn5 with a warrior" it was "Paladins can tank all of coil with a darklight/hoplite mix, warriors can't"

that's as true today as it was at release.

but thanks to 2-3 months of myth farming, most warrior mains outgear the content, so they're able to do coil now and somehow think that makes warriors a good class

go zone in with an average ilvl of 65 and try to tank caduceus at 4+ stacks for any length of time, you'll essentially get gibbed by an autoattack+hood swipe, whereas the ilvl 55 paladin will have sentinel up and tank it like a champ.

yes, the issue was that they gave tanking cooldowns to a tanking class (gosh what were they thinking, they might give dps cooldowns to a dps class next!) ..they just neglected to give them to both

[Solduios]

Holmgang will probably get an extended CD to compensate for its change.
I cannot understand why people are up in arms given that this will mean War/PLD will be a stronger combo than the previous PLD/PLD.

War/War combo might be better now idk hard to say the extra dps they bring to raid and well timed provoke to help the MT war when cool downs are down... the question is rage of halone worth the pld utlity vs keeping new dmg debuff up 100% of the time with 2 wars?

Plus to mention yes if war uses cd's right their dmg output is miles ahead of PLD.

[SwordCoheir]

While I don't necessarily agree all the changes were needed, I do agree that they were at least put in with scaling content in mind. Now WAR doesn't suffer from using up their Wraith, their crowd control capabilities get a boost, and some abilities that were mostly considered useless now have some utility albeit they may be situational in some cases. I really don't think it will divide WAR and PLD all that much as PLD will still be overall a superior mitigation tank, but I think the situation will allow them more niche opportunities based on fight mechanics.

[Steeled]

The enmity changes just baffle me. Tanking on war, aside from initial pickup, is easier than tanking (hate-wise) than paladin and you kill faster too.

Now I expect they'll boost flash too.

[Ehayte]

PLDs have a lot of utility that they are now free to use because they don't HAVE to MT everything. Being an PLD off-tank is awesome, throwing stone skins on healers, MTs, kiters, using cover, stunning adds, blinding and debuffing the boss, provoking after a death and using HG until our new Warrior Overlords and raised... But they still have instances where they will be the preferred MT, i.e. high average damage, where the WAR needs to AE tank/DPS, where silences are needed on main boss, etc.

My only regret is that I cannot play both at once : D

[wonka11]

why didn't you take the hint...

the argument was never "It's impossible to tank turn 1/turn4/turn5 with a warrior" it was "Paladins can tank all of coil with a darklight/hoplite mix, warriors can't"

that's as true today as it was at release. but thanks to 2-3 months of myth farming, most warrior mains outgear the content, so they're able to do coil now and somehow think that makes warriors a good class

I believe a majority of players misunderstand the position on this. Warriors are actually perfectly balanced for the content. Coil is an I90 dungeon, the highest gear in the game is I70 before myth/coil. Paladins shouldn't have been tanking what they did, in easily attainable gear in the first place. My argument was never that "warriors couldn't do it" and I've expressly mentioned that in my post.

My argument never was that "see look what warriors can do in content! we're not useless!" It actually was that warriors are completely fine and balanced as is with the exception to some QoL changes and paladins needed a reduction in their abilities to bring them down to par for the designed game mechanics.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if people think warrior was a tank that was somehow lacking and should be balanced to paladin, they're incorrect. "Balancing" classes means bringing them in par with the current game mechanics, not breaking them beyond those current mechanics.

I've seen a lot of healers complain about healing Warriors in coil. The fact is, if your Warrior tank has the proper gear (which should be hard in the first place to get in coil since we're missing an entire ilevel of gear in the game before we're even supposed to be doing coil), and healers are still dropping the warrior, it means that your healers are not up to par, not that warrior is weak.

Also, I did cadecus with 5 stacks in only 1 piece of i90 which was easily attainable by anyone investing their myth gear; so the disparity between gear and content is not as great as you think.

TLDR: Respectfully speaking, You haven't read or don't understand the argument I've put forth. There is a difference between Arguing for Warrior's effectiveness in tanking (which was never the issue, warriors are balanced as it is), as opposed to requesting a nerf to paladins because they're performing beyond designed content.

The overall theme is, buffing a balanced class to an overpowered one (instead of nerfing the OP class) just to quell public outcry on the forums for lack of understanding or perhaps a lack in proper playing skill is a bad game design decision.

[Maelwys]

The only thing paladin really has that is better than the war is the ability to jam all their cd's at once, which almost never happens because you usually need to spread out your cds for multiple different attacks. When this happens, there is always dead periods where you have to rely on bulwark/foresight, because your real cds, rampart/sentinel, are on CD. Wars will never have this issue. They will always have a CD equal to pallies second best, on demand.

For mitigating repeating single big hits on a shorter cooldown cycle, it's true that properly-timed Inner Beasts will likely win out.

However, for slowly ramping-up damage (think Turn 1 or Turn 2 damage stacks) or for very big hits on a longer cycle, PLD still have the edge because their cooldowns last longer and can be stacked or staggered back-to-back.

Paladins cooldowns are tricky to cycle due to the differing cooldown timers, but you can achieve an uptime of roughly 6 minutes of heavy mitigation; with gaps between cooldowns of 0-5 seconds (not that much longer than the same time it would take a WAR to pop Infuriate and queue a second Inner Beast)

In certain circumstances therefore, WARs are still going to put more pressure on the Healers than PLDs (especially if they use Holmgang - they may not die, but they will need to be healed back to full before it ends!) so Paladins are still going to be more efficient for certain content.

And that's important to note.

Because in practice, what this change has done is put WAR and PLD on terms where the usefulness of each is now close enough that we can actually argue the finer points of efficiency of one or the other for certain types of content.

PLDs can already main tank every type of content in the game. WARs will now be on par, slightly worse, or slightly better than PLDs at main tanking depending on their skill and the content a team is running. Realistically, player skill will probably now have more of an effect on whether a given party will be able to clear a raid than what type of tank they have with them. That is a BIG step up for WAR, and a clear win for the Dev team!!

[Maelwys]

War/War combo might be better now idk hard to say the extra dps they bring to raid and well timed provoke to help the MT war when cool downs are down... the question is rage of halone worth the pld utlity vs keeping new dmg debuff up 100% of the time with 2 wars?

Plus to mention yes if war uses cd's right their dmg output is miles ahead of PLD.

For starters, WAR and PLD dps, when equally geared and using optimal rotations, is VERY close. The only reason WAR pulls noticeably ahead in parses is because of their resistance debuff - which when up affects PLD as well. PLD have a damage debuff in their main combo, which WAR will be able to take benefit of and which will very likely stack with WAR's new damage debuff.

Bringing a PLD and a WAR will give you two stacking 10% damage reduction debuffs on whatever you're fighting, and +10% damage (and therefore enmity generation) for both tanks. As well as the opportunity to use PLD's cooldown suite for spaced-out long periods of mitigation, and WARs cooldowns for regular short bursts of mitigation... not to mention PLD's CC abilities like Blind, Silence, a GCD stun, etc etc. and situational Cover, Provoke and Hallowed Grounds.

PLD + WAR will be better than WAR + WAR or PLD + PLD, in the same way that SCH + WHM is currently better than WHM + WHM or SCH + SCH. Which isn't to say that you won't be able to run content with any combination of them, but that it will be easier and more efficient to run with the mixed combo.