The Black Mage Rotations

[YuriRamona]

I would agree with that if Thunder didn't always seem to proc one right after the other. I've had procs for another one while in the process instantly casting a Thunder III proc.
The odds of that should be astronomical, but it happens quite a bit.
Or I should say, I don't get thundercloud procs much but when I do it almost always chains.

The people earlier were saying they had the same experience, so I'm not going to trust the probability in this case.

Any anecdotal evidence, however common, means nothing if probability provides a sufficient answer.

[dragonflyseksparade]

nonsense about dot ticks.

Doesn't matter. As I mentioned, Thunder is always on the target in a normal ST rotation. You're not adding any 'ticks' of the dot, you're using Thundercloud to get the proc hit. It has nothing to do with the Thunder dot and everything to do with using a proc that does more damage than your Fire I spam.

[Allyrion]

Any anecdotal evidence, however common, means nothing if probability provides a sufficient answer.

It means something when it's common for mechanics like this to be throttled by internal cooldowns.
Everytime I got a proc right after the other because I used it immediately, I made the right choice, right? I'm 360+ potency ahead of the mage who didn't.
Plus you're really not losing much damage from clipping compared to that loss.

If we were still blindly believing the tool tips then we wouldn't even be using Thunder II and using Thunder III only for procs.
It's important for players to try to understand the underlying mechanics when it's so ambiguous and tool tips can be either misleading or outright wrong (despite being the only official information we have on the abilities).

Doesn't matter. As I mentioned, Thunder is always on the target in a normal ST rotation. You're not adding any 'ticks' of the dot, you're using Thundercloud to get the proc hit. It has nothing to do with the Thunder dot and everything to do with using a proc that does more damage than your Fire I spam.

They meant that if you don't use it right away, you give the thunder dot that's already on the target more ticks. Which is more potency on top of the thundercloud proc you use at the end.

They would be right that it's more damage UNLESS you could have gotten a proc while waiting for the buff.
The assumption here is if you get a proc, you probably won't get another for a while. So it's a dps loss to clip the current dot until you have to (a second before the thundercloud buff expires or so).

I don't agree with the assumption but the argument is sound.

[YuriRamona]

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Are you implying that the tooltip is incorrect, and that there is some other factor besides the 5% chance? While this is a possibility, I'm strongly inclined to believe that the tooltip is correct, unless you have some hard data about this.
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Doesn't matter. As I mentioned, Thunder is always on the target in a normal ST rotation. You're not adding any 'ticks' of the dot, you're using Thundercloud to get the proc hit. It has nothing to do with the Thunder dot and everything to do with using a proc that does more damage than your Fire I spam.

Well obviously the issue here is then, how easy is it to keep Thunder up? In a standard rotation, when everything is going normal, I would tend to agree. For messier fights where you want to throw out support abilities or re-position yourself, then this is a little more dubious. In situations where you can expect your normal-cast Thunders to expire for extended periods of time without recast, then it will be viable to maximize their duration before using up Thundercloud.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this. If you cast Thundercloud, for example, near the end of a Thunder duration, do you recast it during the time you normally would? If not, then your Thunder expires during your next Astral phase. If so, then you're cutting the effectiveness of the Thundercloud.

If, instead, you'd used a Thundercloud proc in place of the hard cast Thunder, then you'd be able to fit in another spell instead (for example, Blizzard III).

In addition, doesn't Thundercloud eat up a GCD? Casting it immediately would make even less sense if it does.

[PessimiStick]

I doubt that the tooltip is wrong, but I don't doubt that the PRNG used by the game might be shit. I have personally had back to back to back procs before, which should be really damn rare at a pure 5% chance.

[Adamantium]

After having many situations where I've received up to 5 Thundercloud procs in the timespan of about a minute, I always cast Thundercloud first if I have both it and Firestarter up. I have control over when my next potential Firestarter will proc, but I have no control over when my Thunder will tick. With the way DoTs work in this game (global ticks every 3 seconds), I never really feel like I'm "clipping" a DoT, more like "extending its duration".

[dragonflyseksparade]

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I'm not sure how thundercloud using a GCD has any bearing on the situation. If you're having problems keeping thunder on the target, you should probably focus on fixing that first before joining discussion about maximizing dps. If you can't keep thunder on the target, I can understand why you're confused about this.

[dragonflyseksparade]

The assumption here is if you get a proc, you probably won't get another for a while. So it's a dps loss to clip the current dot until you have to (a second before the thundercloud buff expires or so).

I don't agree with the assumption but the argument is sound.

There is no assumption on my part. The assumption you are making is that Thunder will fall off at an in-opportune time and have to be manually reapplied. This simply isn't the case. It should be up 100% of the time regardless of whether or not you clip it with thundercloud.

[Allyrion]

There is no assumption on my part. The assumption you are making is that Thunder will fall off at an in-opportune time and have to be manually reapplied. This simply isn't the case. It should be up 100% of the time regardless of whether or not you clip it with thundercloud.

No, I am making the assumption that it's possible to get a proc while having the thundercloud buff. Which it is, since you can't control the thundercloud procs as you can with fire starter. I'm not talking about the dot falling off at all.
Back to back procs happen enough that I'm not taking a chance to miss it. That's all there is to it.

[dragonflyseksparade]

No, I am making the assumption that it's possible to get a proc while having the thundercloud buff. Which it is, since you can't control the thundercloud procs as you can with fire starter. I'm not talking about the dot falling off at all.
Back to back procs happen enough that I'm not taking a chance to miss it. That's all there is to it.

I'm sorry I guess I mis-interpreted your first post

My main point is that clipping thunder is fine, because it will get refreshed in a normal rotation regardless of how many ticks were 'overwritten' by using Thundercloud immediately as opposed to saving it. Thundercloud is like free damage in addition to a free refresh of Thunder any time you get it. The only cost is a GCD which would otherwise be filled with a less damaging spell.