"A system that rewards effort and innovation" can't be buzzwords for imbalance-get

[Physic]

"Selling out" in an MMO is akin to selling out by switching from Coke to Pepsi. I switched to BLU because I enjoyed it more, even if it didn't contribute as much as a generic SAM or whatnot.

And I was one of the people that kept THF off the map. And kept THF out of endgame roles other than having them proc TH, because RNG just plain did it better. Nothing against THF, but it's biggest role has mostly been increasing droprate. Sorry bud.

so what peregrine is really saying is they shouldnt make the guaranteed way of winning be biased towards 1 or 2 classes. Theif should never have been created as being only useful for increasing drop rate. Making a bunch of black mages having an easier time with a fight than a balanced party, is poor planning, at best they should have had just as likely a chance at failure, that they were guaranteed was a failure in battle design

Far as the guaranteed routes, or the tested ways of doing something, the problem with that is you re always a follower, and those types never find the new ways, or other ways of dealing with things. There was a time when people said you needed 32 people to beat dynamis, until some other people came in there and did it with 10. There were times when everyone said getting 5k an hour was as good as it gets, till people figured out how to get 10. The tested and guaranteed methods arent always the best, but the fact that people think like this has most people just playing formula in thier jobs, following someone elses faq on how to play. I have done things nobody thought i could or should do, and made it hot, by taking the data available and figuring out how to make things work in different ways.

[Amineri]

How it should be done should be left up to the developers, who know what they have planned. What needs done can absolutely be said. How it should be done is speculative.

Reward diversity.
Block same-job stacking synergy.
Eliminate cliche challenge mechanisms that result in predictable advantages of the same jobs.
Prevent ranged jobs dominating endgame.
Eliminate job stigmas before they occur.
Do not allow imbalance to snowball.

How? Depends on what you have planned. /snip

Just so. However, I don't expect that Matsui-san et al are miracle workers. And tossing out possible ideas that they can pick through to incorporate or reject is probably more productive than .... other things >_>''

• Reward diversity.
  Battle regimens did this beautifully. Each successive weaponskill from a different class added roughly +50% damage. If BRs can be polished up a bit, then a mixed team can outdamage a homogeneous team.
• Block same-job stacking synergy.
  Give bosses self defense buffs against one damage type, say -50% damage to a particular type. The boss uses the buff to counter whatever the majority damage is. If a team is doing 80% projectile damage, suddenly their damage drops overall by 40%.
• Eliminate cliche challenge mechanisms that result in predictable advantages of the same jobs.
  This is the biggest area where we could contribute. Creativity under pressure is HARD. Matsui-san and Yoshi-P have to be under a ton of pressure. I don't have any suggestions here, though ...
• Prevent ranged jobs dominating endgame.
• Eliminate job stigmas before they occur.
• Do not allow imbalance to snowball.

I'm not sure about the rest, but have to head to dinner. I'll either edit later or respond if anyone cares to toss in some ideas.

[Issachar]

Thank you for not taking offense at my weak attempt at hyperbole.

I guess I am one of the silly people that does things the hard way "just because" . That said, if the Matsui-san and the rest of the development team DON'T create a balanced system, no one can really blame people for using and abusing the system.

It's like people blaming consumers for buying a cheaper item over a more expensive one.

In the end, they question to ask is : Is such a system that promotes exclusionary behavior a fun game?

All this garbage about whether it makes you a "good" player or a "bad" player is just a waste. I vote for a system where all the classes / jobs bring something to the table. We could call it ... the "No Class Left Behind" initiative.

I like your ideas...and I think they can work providing they don't oversaturate FFXIV with too many classes/jobs. The more options you have, the bigger the window for imbalance.

[Teknoman]

Just so. However, I don't expect that Matsui-san et al are miracle workers. And tossing out possible ideas that they can pick through to incorporate or reject is probably more productive than .... other things >_>''

• Reward diversity.
  Battle regimens did this beautifully. Each successive weaponskill from a different class added roughly +50% damage. If BRs can be polished up a bit, then a mixed team can outdamage a homogeneous team.
• Block same-job stacking synergy.
  Give bosses self defense buffs against one damage type, say -50% damage to a particular type. The boss uses the buff to counter whatever the majority damage is. If a team is doing 80% projectile damage, suddenly their damage drops overall by 40%.
• Eliminate cliche challenge mechanisms that result in predictable advantages of the same jobs.
  This is the biggest area where we could contribute. Creativity under pressure is HARD. Matsui-san and Yoshi-P have to be under a ton of pressure. I don't have any suggestions here, though ...
• Prevent ranged jobs dominating endgame.
• Eliminate job stigmas before they occur.
• Do not allow imbalance to snowball.

I'm not sure about the rest, but have to head to dinner. I'll either edit later or respond if anyone cares to toss in some ideas.

Agree with this post 100% Great points and suggestions brought forward. Really puts Peregrine's points into perspective too, and hopefully they'll be viewing this.

[Alaltus]

The Devs need to react to job imbalances faster than it has in the past and stand by what the original jobs roles are and not encourage deviating over sticking to their roles. In xi the first job i chose to lv was RDM and while the first 30 levels? maybe allowed me to stick to the melee mage ethos beyound that it became pretty much impossible. Rdm bassically became pink mage in party play beyound that point cycling through refresh haste and cures. Dragoon was my first 75 so i never level'd jobs over their popularity and waiting hours for a party invite was apart of the job description because the unpopularity of the job had gone unchanged for so long at the time.

I did eventually lv rdm to 75 but nothing ever came along that made me particularly enjoy playing the job. I was hopeful when there was talk about bringing RDM to the frontlines but enspell II's was never out weigh the adding of Refresh II and a new set of elemental staves. Im not disputing RDM's usefullness as a job in xi because it was capable of a great many things largely because of utsusemi and fast cast but it just never was rdm to me unless i was out soloing with my sword. I havent played xi in the past few months so i dont know if things have changed drastically or not but from what i can see through the web it doesnt really seem like any real change has been made to rdm though i suppose considering its popularity as healer its not really a priority.

Corrections need to come in a timely manner or else the community will decide what the roles of each job will be as xi has proven on many occasions.

[Davorok]

I have a thought: Why do Mobs always gain TP from the melees during a fight?

Why not have a monster gain TP automatically but melees disrupt and decrease the Mob's TP?

The Mob tries to sleep/stun/incapacitate the melees so it can gain it's TP move.

Mages need to pay attention to Status Effects as well as Heals.

Tanks do what they always do.

Archers would be no better or worse than any DD except somewhat less desirable with mob control.
(just don't stand next to the mages)

[RedAffinity]

"Selling out" in an MMO is akin to selling out by switching from Coke to Pepsi. I switched to BLU because I enjoyed it more, even if it didn't contribute as much as a generic SAM or whatnot.

And I was one of the people that kept THF off the map. And kept THF out of endgame roles other than having them proc TH, because RNG just plain did it better. Nothing against THF, but it's biggest role has mostly been increasing droprate. Sorry bud.

I think that's the entire point here. Someone who wants to enjoy THF for everything it has to offer is often not given the opportunity since the formula is 1 THF only and one purpose only TH

[Peregrine]

"Selling out" in an MMO is akin to selling out by switching from Coke to Pepsi. I switched to BLU because I enjoyed it more, even if it didn't contribute as much as a generic SAM or whatnot.

And I was one of the people that kept THF off the map. And kept THF out of endgame roles other than having them proc TH, because RNG just plain did it better. Nothing against THF, but it's biggest role has mostly been increasing droprate. Sorry bud.

No, selling out is a blue mage who represses the thief job after blue mage was designed with thief's input in mind so thief never happens again. You can just say thank you.

You're playing the role of Benny in The Mummy, sucking up to the villain and agreeing to foil the heroes for a little pocket change and status for yourself. If they don't invite the thief, they're more likely to invite a player like you and so naturally you take that deal. People who think and behave like you snowball the problem. You flock to imbalance, and discard diversity at the drop of a hat, and you like how it rewards you. You don't care how many dragoons and thieves and dark knights have to sit out, because you're not them.

Keep in mind that in early FFXI, every meleer. Warriors. Sams. Monks. All of them were gimps. All of them sat in town if teams had their choice. You're hypocritical. And again, you sold out a long time ago. Of course you went straight to archer this time. That's the kind of player you choose to be and the kind of imbalance power you choose to follow around.

Your "guaranteed" ways are mediocre gameplay for mediocre players who consider themselves great. They should never even let you all enter raids or Ifrit fights with your five archers or 8 thaumaturges.

[Peregrine]

I have a thought: Why do Mobs always gain TP from the melees during a fight?

Why not have a monster gain TP automatically but melees disrupt and decrease the Mob's TP?

The Mob tries to sleep/stun/incapacitate the melees so it can gain it's TP move.

Mages need to pay attention to Status Effects as well as Heals.

Tanks do what they always do.

Archers would be no better or worse than any DD except somewhat less desirable with mob control.
(just don't stand next to the mages)

Ironically...well as stupidly balanced as the classes are I guess it's to be expected...there is a job that makes the mob's TP go down every time they do a normal attack.


It's archer. Five archers together is effectively a TP lock, and they don't even have to change the way they play. It automatically happens when they use a simple heavy shot 1-mash. Again, balance in this game is a joke right now.

As your peer so lazily puts it, when archers are a guaranteed TP lock, what use is lancer and their twisting vice? TP down battle regimen? Marauder's Siphon TP?

None.

[Bokuhn]

I wish the best for FFXIV and its players. I can't imagine anything to bring back life to the game. All there is left is hope in the FF series ^^