Shroud of Saints mana regen should not be static

[Pharazon]

-snip-

I would like to point out that shroud is absolutely not needed for White Mage mana management. You can heal everything in the game at least up through Turn 4 (haven't downed turn 5 so I wont include it) without ever casting a shroud. When I first killed turn 4 I used shroud because we were making mistakes as we were getting used to the fight, once we had our strategy and everyone had seen the fight I was able to heal from start to finish and not cast shroud on our next kills.

White mages need to lean very heavily on cure 1 so that you get the free cure 2 procs and arent wasting on mana on regens that just end up doing over healing. I dont claim at any point that shroud shouldn't be looked at for the next tier or maybe two in raiding but its not an integral part of how White Mages are supposed to be managing their mana. Its there for when you screw up or when your team screws up. Our mana management is very fun and challenging IMHO because its not just managing a cooldown to give you mana back but the actual nature of your healing. You can't just go throwing out whatever heals you want, you actually have to select the right tool everytime and when you don't you have shroud as a bit of a safety net.

Shroud will most assuredly need some kind of change in the next year but I don't see the point in having it scale now or even in the near future because it is absolutely not needed.

I have a vid up here that goes over how I look at White Mage healing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak0nrdkii-Q

and I dont expect everyone to agree with me but I know I have healed everything through turn 4 without having to cast shroud and I in no way over gear that content.

[Kyomih]

snip

Sorry but you can't generalize like this. Good for you if you can do that but a WHMs MP management is directly linked to the people he/she runs with. If DPS is low, if the tank is not ideally geared your MP will suffer and yes you WILL need shroud.
It's as if I would say: Any WHM can do AK in cleric stance. It's true in my case if I run with a FC group who are all well geared.
See what I did there?

That said, I also don't think Shroud needs a change.

[Slark]

snip

I agree that shroud is not currently needed for mana management. *Assuming you have 1-2 bards, and decent tank/dps* However, do you think that's good design? I don't.

I do consider balancing HPS/mana efficiency/CDs to be fun and I see it as an integral part of healing. However, it is extremely elementary when you are solely deciding to either use cure 1, or cure 2. Cure 3 is extremely situational, while Medica1/2 and benediction do not require much thought. It's essentially do or die with Benediction, and it just takes a small amount of judgment for the medicas. Regen takes no thought whatsoever. It's so efficient both time and mana wise, its an obvious choice to keep it up as much as possible. As such, we are left with Cure1 and Cure 2. Need HPS? Cure2. Need efficiency? Cure1 It really is that simple.

[Pharazon]

Sorry but you can't generalize like this. Good for you if you can do that but a WHMs MP management is directly linked to the people he/she runs with. If DPS is low, if the tank is not ideally geared your MP will suffer and yes you WILL need shroud.
It's as if I would say: Any WHM can do AK in cleric stance. It's true in my case if I run with a FC group who are all well geared.
See what I did there?

That said, I also don't think Shroud needs a change.

I understand the point you are making but you obviously missed at least part of mine. My point was that shroud is what fills the gap when you have dps making mistakes or when the tank or yourself are undergeared, and not part of normal mana management. I feel that SE has done a very good job of setting a base line of expectations for each role regarding avoiding aoe's and not pulling threat off the tank (also meaning the tank must maintain threat) by making it nearly impossible to heal when these roles do not do their job properly. With shroud they have given you a bit of lee way to recover when these mistakes happen but its a very finite amount and forces the people in the other roles to get better because you will not be able to heal through "stupid".

I agree that shroud is not currently needed for mana management. *Assuming you have 1-2 bards, and decent tank/dps* However, do you think that's good design? I don't.

I do consider balancing HPS/mana efficiency/CDs to be fun and I see it as an integral part of healing. However, it is extremely elementary when you are solely deciding to either use cure 1, or cure 2. Cure 3 is extremely situational, while Medica1/2 and benediction do not require much thought. It's essentially do or die with Benediction, and it just takes a small amount of judgment for the medicas. Regen takes no thought whatsoever. It's so efficient both time and mana wise, its an obvious choice to keep it up as much as possible. As such, we are left with Cure1 and Cure 2. Need HPS? Cure2. Need efficiency? Cure1 It really is that simple.

I do think requiring a good tank and dps is good design because that means the content and game mechanics aren't built for any person to faceroll through them. As for the 1-2 bard comment we run one bard and the more comfortable we became with the fight the less and less mana song has been needed to the point that we don't really use it. However, there needs to be a separate discussion about the mana song because I'm not sure that overall I think that is good design because it makes one class mandatory to take to help learn a fight, even if after you get comfortable with it you don't need the song anymore.

To your other point about mana magement and specifically regen. I think regen, aside from its use on the tank, is the spell that gets used incorrectly the most. Regen is only mana efficient when you can get 4+ ticks from it and even at 3-4 ticks if the target wasn't missing a huge chunk of health or taking additional damage you could get the same benefit from one cure I as 3 ticks of regen and they both would cost you one global but the target wouldn't have to wait 9+ seconds for the effect. If regen doesn't have that health to put back after the 3rd or 4th tick all you did for yourself was get more aggro than you needed to and waste 53 mana.

People do a similar thing when using medica and medica II. Most immediately default to medica II once titan stomps start going out. This is wrong. Once stomps have started its too late to cast medica II. Because of the longer cast time and lower initial heal. Medica II in the case of sustained aoe damage is better used solely for its HoT and precast before the damage ever goes out. That way while the aoe damage is happening you can cast your medica for the larger heal and shorter cast time while still getting the benefit of the HoT. Like regen if the HoT portion of Medica II isnt all going to put health back and instead goes to overheal you were probably better off casting Medica instead. I talk about this type of stuff in a bit more detail in the video I linked in a post above but there is definitely more nuance to being mana efficient than just cure I and cure II.

[Syncness]

You guys are starting to go off topic again.

Slark summarizes my points quite nicely.

I find it really frustrating that OP brings up a very strong point on the future of Shroud, yet quite a few people in here completely ignore it, take his/her words out of context, and argue about something trivial and semi-unrelated.

Shroud needs PIE scaling for a few reasons.
1) Shroud is a flat-rate amount that will lose its mana-regen purposes, and turn into threat dump with "a little extra mana" tacked onto the side.
2) WHMs currently have extremely little control over how to manage mana, or gear for it. For example, opening Shroud up for PIE scaling may offer more incentives to invest in PIE attributes, effectively increasing our options for itemization/stat choices.
3) Gearing PIE currently is pretty lackluster right now, and all of it's benefits are passive, meaning it doesn't really change gameplay much.

Don't care for buffs or nerfs, just care for PIE scaling.

[Pharazon]

You guys are starting to go off topic again.

Slark summarizes my points quite nicely.


Don't care for buffs or nerfs, just care for PIE scaling.

I don't think I've been off topic but rather looking at this from a much broader range. But I will try to be a bit more concise to help sum up some of my longer posts.

First, as far as buffs and nerfs go, if you add any amount of scaling to Shroud you will be automatically buffing it on the higher end of the scale and nerfing it on the lower end because it will actually need to "scale" meaning the lower gear levels will get less than 1060 mp and the higher will get more than 1060 mp. Second SE obviously feels and I would agree at this point that 1060 mp back at high end gear levels is enough so adding scaling to the skill now would simply be an unneeded buff, assuming it went above the 1060 since that is already 20%+ of endgame mana pools. Anyone who is leaning on shroud to keep from going oom after learning a fight, either A. is not healing efficiently and thus needs to work on using their tools better, or B. has a team that needs to avoid more avoidable damage or not pull aggro or use defensive cds better.

Directly to Slark's points

1) I agree but its pointless to change now because that is not the case currently. It is likely it will take another tier or maybe two of gear before this happens so for now we should be vigilant how it goes as we move forward but no need in fixing something that isn't currently broken
2a) I disagree about our control over how to manage mana. I have posted a link to my youtube guide in a recent post where I talk about using the right tools for the job and strongly believe that tying the mana management directly to those tools is what makes the white mage challenging. Having Shroud not be part of the mana management but rather your safety net for inefficiency or mistakes is not bad design, just one that will have to maintained as gear levels rise.
2b) As for increasing options in itemization/stat choices there is a far bigger issue than making PIE an attractive stat. You actually need the ability to itemize. Right now the game does not allow for this as an option because end game gear does not have materia slots outside of vanya's pieces which you won't be wearing long if you are regularly downing coil and capping your myth. If there were more ways to itemize your gear beyond what is essentially 10 materia at best then maybe this would hold more weight.
3) You cant gear PIE right now for the same reasons posted in 2b so this again is a pretty moot point. I honestly can't think of any stat that changes gameplay much. MND you heal for more so maybe you cast less heals, Vit you can take a bit more dmg and not die but thats not really a gameplay change, Crit is in the same boat as mnd really, Spellspeed might actually change gameplay but there's not enough of it to really be able to tell so at this point it doesn't change gameplay for now at least, and even with your proposed changed to PIE your gameplay is going to change how, by letting you cast shroud after you are down 1200 mana instead of 1060? That's not a change that is going to effect gameplay so I don't think that's a valid argument.


Again I think Shroud will need a change but its not right now and its probably not in the next 6 months. Anyone asking for it to change in this thread is doing so prematurely and not giving very good reasons for it to change. The best argument for the change is for a hypothetical gear level that we have no idea when we will get to. I hope this better sums up the points that I have been trying to make and sheds some light on the current and future state of Shroud.9

[Slark]

I don't really have 15minutes to spare right now to watch your video, but I have played MMO's for 12 years, and I can safely say that WHM healing is very elementary and basic in comparison to other MMO's I have played. This is mainly due to the fact that many of the things a WHM does to conserve mana are things every other MMO makes you do as a healer, except they add much more to the table on top of that. By doing this, they not only allow for a higher skill cap, but also for more control over your resource(s).

Itemization/stat choices means having more choices on gear, as well as having more choices on what stats are available to you. I don't see what you are trying to say in regards to what I am.

Gameplay SHOULD change depending on what stat you are focusing on.
You should be able to be a WHM with crazy regen and low-end heals with a PIE focus. You should be able to get a big burst of mana regen out of your mana regen abilities if you focus majorly on it.
You should be able to take advantage of freecures/overcures more often, as well as having more HPS in spammy situations, though seeing a decline in mana efficiency through a spell speed focus.
You should be a better burst healer, and with no downsides besides RNG through a crit focus.
You should be sort of an all-around, and reliable healer with a DET focus.
You should be able to survive alot of things other WHM's cant through a VIT focus.
Most importantly, these things need to be very noticeable.

All of these stats SHOULD change gameplay, but in reality, most of them really do not change anything at this point in time. Largely because there is no incentive, scaling, weak conversions, and balance issues.
Actually, you would atleast be able to go 30PIE attributes, which is a pretty big deal. I've respecced numerous times, and I found 30PIE to be pretty slick by itself. If I had more incentive (an actual ability that scaled through it) then I would go PIE in a heartbeat. I have always been a mana regen and/or a crit-stacking fan in MMO's. But knowing that if I solely focus on Crit for example, I gain such small amounts by doing so (roughly 7% for crit) I ask myself, why even bother? Why should I even care about my gear if it really does not make a noticeable difference? Also, I would like to point out that aside from MND and weapon damage, PIE changes gameplay the most right now. Going from 0 to 30 PIE in attributes is actually noticeable in passive mana regen. Unfortunately, MND is also noticeable, and outshines PIE. All PIE needs is a little something to push it over the edge to compete with MND for players like me, and that push could very easily be scaling on a single ability to make it more attractive.

I ask you this: Scholars' mana regen gets to scale. It gets to become weaker/stronger depending on your gear level, so why shouldn't ours? Aetherflow alone (Not counting aetherflow stacks) is already coming close to doubling Shroud on mana returns. By the time someone is in full ilvl90, it will most likely more than double Shroud. This is in gear that is currently available to us. I'm not advocating for us to be just like them, but its very easy to see that a Scholar is far more in control of their mana supply than we are, simply by better design. (I would like to point out that they may not choose to regen all that mana, and instead, push it into other areas such as HPS or utility, hence, management.) This is mainly because they are given more tools than us to handle it. By the time Ilvl100 comes out, I wouldnt doubt it if Aetherflow+energy drainx3 gave them back 3250+ mana, while ours still returned 1060, on a less-flexible cooldown. Think about that for a while.

Simply being efficient on your 3 single target, 3 AOE spells is nice, but in reality, you should also have to manage and coordinate HPS+mana regen cooldowns, possibly a second resource, (Aetherflow is an example), and have a much more diverse set of spells, making efficiency harder, but more rewarding. Right now, we have enough HPS cooldowns. However, we really are lacking in healing kit options, and having a real way to forcibly regen mana. On top of this, our main mana conserving skill is RNG based (Freecure).

Once again, I'm not advocating to have more mana regen, I'm advocating for us to be in more control of it, which we currently aren't aside from making simple decisions based on our small healing kit. Also, we should have more options. PIE scaling on Shroud only aids in this objective.

In pretty much every MMO, healers have the mana regen stat (PIE in this case) scale with all of their mana regen abilities. Theres a reason they do this. (Also, I'd like to point out SCH's do this.) It promotes diversity in build customization, and proper scaling into harder content, without the need to constantly go and fix it with every content release.

[Pharazon]

@Slark


If you do get a chance to check out my videos I did a whole new video (part two of the white mage guide) about the mana management of White Mages and Shroud's role as they are currently in the system we have.
It seems to me that it's not so much shroud that you want to change but the system that White Mages use in general, as well as the gearing system. This may honestly be what we need in the long term and I don't think your wrong in thinking that. I simply believe that these are two separate discussions. One where in the current system people are not looking at shroud for what it is, and understanding what it means to manage your mana as a White Mage within that system. The other, and one where I believe we share a lot opinions, is that while the White Mage system works now the outlook for its long term isn't very good or particularly interesting. The second IMHO is the more important conversation to be having and is not based on Shroud but rather the lack of "noticeable" control of your mana.

In my mana management video I talk about the decisions you have to make when selecting your heals, and I do believe they are more involved than you make them sound because that is how you "actively" manage your mana. With every single decision you are making a choice that effects that mana pool but because each choice may be a difference of 50 mp its not particularly noticeable to the healer and can create a feeling of not having control. The system is interesting in that the more comfortable you and your group are with a fight the less you need the safety net of Shroud and it makes every decision important. But when compared to the Scholar who can pump mana back in much more re-actively to both their own and their groups mistakes and inefficiencies, White Mages seem to have no options. In reality you have a finite amount of mistakes baked in to Shroud since its a static amount and if you want to recover from mistakes and inefficiencies beyond that you have to make the best of choices to climb back up which is very small incremental pieces that again have the problem of not being particularly noticeable.

Now, I'm not advocating for the system we have just trying to help other White Mages better understand it. Like you I feel that having a system where there was noticeable control would be better, but I don't want to end up with a mirrored version of the Scholar system. I like that diversity. Maybe having a White Mage stance that switched Piety and Mind is the answer or a stacking buff that went up every-time you cast a Cure I that returned mana every-time you cast Cure II. As long as the answer is something noticeable I think we will be in a better place overall.

Also having the option to itemize gear better is something I think everyone in the game would love to see because stacking 30 of any stat while it may be observable, I don't agree it makes any real difference to game-play. So having gear where we can stack 50-100 of a stat in the next tier would definitely be a welcome change and would open up a lot of diversity even among a particular job.

I hope this better illustrates what I was trying to accomplish and in all honesty, part of the reason I do the videos is I feel more comfortable explaining by talking rather than trying to type it out in a way that makes sense, because I have a much more difficult time of it.

Maybe a thread discussing a system for White Mages to have noticeable control of their mana is in order?


PS - Thanks for the civility of your posts. It makes it much easier to have a discussion about the game and job we enjoy even when we might differ on certain opinions and is much appreciated.

[Syncness]

Shroud scaling is merely a stepping stone to better itemization and gear options.

If skill effects don't scale, then even with diverse stat options there's no incentive to use those items.