"A system that rewards effort and innovation" can't be buzzwords for imbalance-get

[Issachar]

[EDIT]: Screw it, no sense trying to talk to a wall.

[Amineri]

[EDIT]: Screw it, no sense trying to talk to a wall.

"Why do things the hard way, when the guaranteed way is easier?"

Issachar, I'm going to include your signature tagline here, and contrast that with Matsui-san's goals for the battle system revamp:

Fostering Skillful Play
Creating a battle system that fosters skillful play.
The above is, in a sentence, the rationale behind the coming battle changes. Not exactly the punchiest catchphrase around, but perhaps there’s kindly a soul out there who could word it better. */poke Yoshi-P*

To elaborate, we are aiming to address issues such as the following:
Victories coming with little reliance on skillful play.
Lack of information needed for skillful play.
No sense of accomplishment even with skillful play.
In light of the above, our objective is to implement a battle system that rewards player effort and innovation in such areas as equipment, hunting grounds, and party structure.

Lastly, in conceiving these changes, we have kept one fact close to heart: simply making enemies stronger does not equate to an environment that fosters and rewards skillful play.

Easy =/= Fun
also,
Hard =/= Fun (see the part where he says "simply making enemies stronger does not equate to an environment that fosters and rewards skillful play" ?)

If you want the easy way, let me point you at this game : http://www.kongregate.com/games/back...uilder-classic

However, for my part, I agree with Matsui-san's vision of encouraging skillful play.

[Issachar]

Issachar, I'm going to include your signature tagline here, and contrast that with Matsui-san's goals for the battle system revamp:



Easy =/= Fun
also,
Hard =/= Fun (see the part where he says "simply making enemies stronger does not equate to an environment that fosters and rewards skillful play" ?)

If you want the easy way, let me point you at this game : http://www.kongregate.com/games/back...uilder-classic

However, for my part, I agree with Matsui-san's vision of encouraging skillful play.

Don't let my sig mislead you. I love a good challenge. But in most cases, I'd rather go about proven, tried-and-true route than take the road less travelled (though being a BLU main kind of makes me a hypocrite?). That doesn't always mean the guaranteed way lacks skill or substance, but rather avoids uneccesary difficulty where due. Kind of like Ark Angels strategies in FFXI...I'd rather go with the BLM nuke approach than try to fight them head on with multiple tanks.

In summary: The quote is to suggest that doing things the known, proven way will save you stress in the end. That doesn't mean that if you try to do things the hard way, you're stupid...just a piece of advice to provoke thought as to "Is doing this the hard way worth it?". To each their own And I hope this new battle system Matsui is detailing provides breathing room so certain things aren't so restricting like FFXI's challenges were.

[Peregrine]

Don't let my sig mislead you. I love a good challenge. But in most cases, I'd rather go about proven, tried-and-true route than take the road less travelled (though being a BLU main kind of makes me a hypocrite?). That doesn't always mean the guaranteed way lacks skill or substance, but rather avoids uneccesary difficulty where due. Kind of like Ark Angels strategies in FFXI...I'd rather go with the BLM nuke approach than try to fight them head on with multiple tanks.

In summary: The quote is to suggest that doing things the known, proven way will save you stress in the end. That doesn't mean that if you try to do things the hard way, you're stupid...just a piece of advice to provoke thought as to "Is doing this the hard way worth it?". To each their own And I hope this new battle system Matsui is detailing provides breathing room so certain things aren't so restricting like FFXI's challenges were.

Your way is a mediocre player's playpen. They should never give mediocre players the means to succeed if they want a successful and truly rewarding game.

Flocking to chickenwuss tactics is the lowest common denominator. This game deserves better than gimps riding bards and rangers to glory. The only players who want that kind of game are the gimps who need such imbalance to succeed.

Us Drgs, Pups, Thfs and drks will do just fine without their high golf handicaps.

[Issachar]

I wasn't talking to you, girlscout. And I'll have you know that DRG was my main from Zilart until ToAU, as well as my first 75. Long before you ever touched the game, I'm thoroughly convinced by now. Just because you bought the game the first day it was out on X360 doesn't make you a vet.

[Amineri]

Don't let my sig mislead you. I love a good challenge. But in most cases, I'd rather go about proven, tried-and-true route than take the road less travelled (though being a BLU main kind of makes me a hypocrite?). That doesn't always mean the guaranteed way lacks skill or substance, but rather avoids uneccesary difficulty where due. Kind of like Ark Angels strategies in FFXI...I'd rather go with the BLM nuke approach than try to fight them head on with multiple tanks.

In summary: The quote is to suggest that doing things the known, proven way will save you stress in the end. That doesn't mean that if you try to do things the hard way, you're stupid...just a piece of advice to provoke thought as to "Is doing this the hard way worth it?". To each their own And I hope this new battle system Matsui is detailing provides breathing room so certain things aren't so restricting like FFXI's challenges were.

Thank you for not taking offense at my weak attempt at hyperbole.

I guess I am one of the silly people that does things the hard way "just because" . That said, if the Matsui-san and the rest of the development team DON'T create a balanced system, no one can really blame people for using and abusing the system.

It's like people blaming consumers for buying a cheaper item over a more expensive one.

In the end, they question to ask is : Is such a system that promotes exclusionary behavior a fun game?

All this garbage about whether it makes you a "good" player or a "bad" player is just a waste. I vote for a system where all the classes / jobs bring something to the table. We could call it ... the "No Class Left Behind" initiative.

[Issachar]

Thank you for not taking offense at my weak attempt at hyperbole.

I guess I am one of the silly people that does things the hard way "just because" . That said, if the Matsui-san and the rest of the development team DON'T create a balanced system, no one can really blame people for using and abusing the system.

It's like people blaming consumers for buying a cheaper item over a more expensive one.

In the end, they question to ask is : Is such a system that promotes exclusionary behavior a fun game?

All this garbage about whether it makes you a "good" player or a "bad" player is just a waste. I vote for a system where all the classes / jobs bring something to the table. We could call it ... the "No Class Left Behind" initiative.

I like your ideas...and I think they can work providing they don't oversaturate FFXIV with too many classes/jobs. The more options you have, the bigger the window for imbalance.

[Davorok]

I have a thought: Why do Mobs always gain TP from the melees during a fight?

Why not have a monster gain TP automatically but melees disrupt and decrease the Mob's TP?

The Mob tries to sleep/stun/incapacitate the melees so it can gain it's TP move.

Mages need to pay attention to Status Effects as well as Heals.

Tanks do what they always do.

Archers would be no better or worse than any DD except somewhat less desirable with mob control.
(just don't stand next to the mages)

[Peregrine]

I have a thought: Why do Mobs always gain TP from the melees during a fight?

Why not have a monster gain TP automatically but melees disrupt and decrease the Mob's TP?

The Mob tries to sleep/stun/incapacitate the melees so it can gain it's TP move.

Mages need to pay attention to Status Effects as well as Heals.

Tanks do what they always do.

Archers would be no better or worse than any DD except somewhat less desirable with mob control.
(just don't stand next to the mages)

Ironically...well as stupidly balanced as the classes are I guess it's to be expected...there is a job that makes the mob's TP go down every time they do a normal attack.


It's archer. Five archers together is effectively a TP lock, and they don't even have to change the way they play. It automatically happens when they use a simple heavy shot 1-mash. Again, balance in this game is a joke right now.

As your peer so lazily puts it, when archers are a guaranteed TP lock, what use is lancer and their twisting vice? TP down battle regimen? Marauder's Siphon TP?

None.

[Amineri]

I have a thought: Why do Mobs always gain TP from the melees during a fight?

Why not have a monster gain TP automatically but melees disrupt and decrease the Mob's TP?

The Mob tries to sleep/stun/incapacitate the melees so it can gain it's TP move.

Mages need to pay attention to Status Effects as well as Heals.

Tanks do what they always do.

Archers would be no better or worse than any DD except somewhat less desirable with mob control.
(just don't stand next to the mages)

I think that conceptually this is the role that Lancers are to play. Moonrise (slows Mob TP generation and makes Mob TP powers cost more) and Twisting Vice (completely eliminates Mobs current TB) lets a lancer nearly completely shut down a Mob's special abilities, subject to misses and evasions, naturally, this comes at the cost of reducing Lancer damage output, though.

In the current system, though, both Moonrise and Twisting Vice can be used cross-class. Archers get a basic attack Heavy Shot (hence usable only by archers) that damage Mob TP. So, in the current system, an Archer equips Pikemanship (increase LNC affinity), equips Moonrise and Twisting Vice, and uses Heavy Shot, so now damages does the job better then a Lancer.

I fully anticipate Twisting Vice being made into a Lancer-only ability during the reworking going on, if only because it is one of the only abilities that costs five points to equip (hence in my fevered imagination the dev team 'almost' made it a class ability).

However, I also don't want to see a situation where a Lancer is REQUIRED in a party, nor do I want to see parties of 7 Lancers + THM that win by never allowing the enemy to use a special attack. To me that's just another cheesy, boring tactic akin to 7 Archers and a THM.