Market ideas, and how to fix it.

[Chauve]

I've gotten the comment that you shouldn't fix what's not broken. But I can honestly say, the market system here is causing quite some instabilities. So I just thought I'd put this up here after looking around at some of the posts.

1. Taxes - There is not currently a meaningful, immediate charge. There's no point in having a separate listing and selling fee when in actuality it's just put into one. There is a reason for having a listing and a buying fee, and it's sole purpose is to stabilize. Not a difficult concept to understand.

2. Undercutting - I'm not here to bitch about all the players that undercut. Undercutting doesn't ruin a market, but price changes on a whim do. You'll find undercutting everywhere. The only thing that means is that your listings take slightly longer to sell. You're still getting more money. Allow undercutting, but don't encourage it by not having a listing fee, as I've mentioned above.

[Chauve]

3. Supply and Demand - As it is now, there is no way to place orders and the only way to test for demand is to find a slightly empty market, take a look at the recent history, throw some things up for a price on the higher end (or sometimes slightly higher than the lowest, depending on supply) and hope it sells in a reasonable time. Ability to place buy orders would help know what the majority is willing to pay.

4. Quantities! - A suggestion would be to create a "pool" with all the items currently listed, separated only by HQ/NQ. Let's say you want to purchase a stack of something, but there are different quantities listed at different prices. Simply show a list of the 8-10 lowest prices. You should be able to still order 99, but when you place an order have a system that calculates the cost incorporating ALL of the prices within the first 99 items listed at the lowest prices.

[Chauve]

Similarly, if you're a seller, you should be able to see 8-10 of the highest offers.

5. Selling/Buying options - With the above system in place, you should not be able to place orders for an item that is lower than the NPC buyback price. Likewise, you can't sell for lower than that either. The default price should be blank, with two options while selling: "match lowest price" or the ability to input your own price, with a quanitity field. When buying, "match highest offer" or a custom input field, and a quantity field of up to 99.



This creates an auction system in which you can place buy orders, fill existing orders, and sell your items efficiently. Yes, it's a "playable" market that people can sit there and make money just by flipping items for minutes a day. But it also gives you a better idea of what the actual demand of an item is, and you can farm/craft accordingly. Playable or not, it's a lot more stable than what exists now.

[gadzi_h]

Similarly, if you're a seller, you should be able to see 8-10 of the highest offers.

5. Selling/Buying options - With the above system in place, you should not be able to place orders for an item that is lower than the NPC buyback price...

Number 5 starts to solve some issues. If an NPC buy back is the same price as a market listing those items should just be absorbed into the NPC market as the NPC would flip it for a profit. Some equilibrium between NPC item supply needs to be met, as having an infinite supply and NPC's not sourcing goods from the market makes no sense. This could stoke market participation by making gathering, and GC turn-in's more important to the over all stability of the economy. Right now there are 2 economies NPC and Player (through the market boards) and even a different/competing currency seeing as tomestomes are used to buy gear at end game. I wish there was more synergy between NPC and the player economy. But 5 starts to address some odd market behaviour.

[Xystic]

#1. No, the fee is not what you think it is. It is a gil sink fee and removes gil from the market. In any mmo, the amount of gil that enters the market must also be removed from the market to keep the game healthy. If gil is not removed from the game you get a pile up of gil and inflation of prices. Anyone new and entering the game would never be able to afford anything in the game. We eliminate players into the community thus hurting the game. This scenario has been seen thousands of times over countless MMOs. This is why the term gold-sink came into existence.

At the same time, gil must enter the community at the same rate it is being destroyed or there will be no gil eventually over time. Adding a fee to any item sold is a great way to remove gil. If you've seen MMOs since the dawn of their time, you would know that listing fees of any type is a gil/gold sink feature. Like these FC houses which will be gigantic gil sinks.This should be common knowledge.

[Xystic]

#2. Initial Listing fees don't help. It actually hurts the people who are actually complaining about it the most atm. It discourages those who,depend on what few items they have to sell, because they can't afford to re-list. Any undercutting forces them out of the market because they can't afford to re-list without taking loses. Its even worse when casuals undercut one another, the only guy who wins is the one at the bottom, therefore the "X" amount of casuals above him are pretty much boned. There are tons of other MMOs with forums with 100 page long threads discussing the problems with initial listing fees. Without initial listing fees they can atleast compete fairly. The importance of casuals is that they are a majority of the community these days and therefore drive a good portion of the market and game as well. You kill them, you kill the game.

[Xystic]

#3. You contradict yourself. You state there is no way to know what the supply and demand is but then you state the recent transactions history list. That alone is plenty. If used and studied properly it is already too dangerous.

These 1,000 word posts are rather annoying lol.

[Kazamoto]

#2. Initial Listing fees don't help. It actually hurts the people who are actually complaining about it the most atm. It discourages those who,depend on what few items they have to sell, because they can't afford to re-list. Any undercutting forces them out of the market because they can't afford to re-list without taking loses. Its even worse when casuals undercut one another, the only guy who wins is the one at the bottom, therefore the "X" amount of casuals above him are pretty much boned. There are tons of other MMOs with forums with 100 page long threads discussing the problems with initial listing fees. Without initial listing fees they can atleast compete fairly. The importance of casuals is that they are a majority of the community these days and therefore drive a good portion of the market and game as well. You kill them, you kill the game.

An initial listing fee, which is the standard of many MMO's reduces undercutting two ways.


First, it prevents people from knee-jerk undercut spirals that are caused by person A selling something, person B posting at a lower price, then person adjusting under that new price, then person B adjusting even lower.

Second, it motivates sellers to price items at realistic levels that more accurately reflect the demand for their wares. If demand were sufficient for their goods, people would be bought out before other sellers could notice the downward trend.

This means a 'casual' could check the price history for his/her items, then see the prices of items currently available, then put his goods up for a price they know would be met within a reasonable amount of time.

As you mention the people being 'boned', this happens because everyone can adjust their prices williy nilly without allowing them to settle.

[Xystic]

There is no realistic value. I don't know where you are getting that from.

If there are 5 people in one market and there are only 2 customers who are going to buy 20 pieces/week:

A- 5 item
B - 6 item
C-100 items
D - 10 items
E -15 items

On the market board and we know that the cutoff price for profit is at say 40 gil.

A - x2 - 100 gil
B - x3 - 90 gil
A - x3 - 88 gil
B - x3 - 80
C - x10 - 77 gil
D - x5 - 56 gil
C - x10 -55 gil
D - x5 - 50 gil
C - x10 - 45 gil
E - x10 - 44 gil
C - x10 - 43 gil
E - x5 - 42 gil
C - x10 - 41 gil
C - x10 - 41 gil

Now C doesn't have to worry at all because he doesn't need to relist, hes making money period and now controls the market. Everyone above him is boned because if they had to relist with a 5% fee, they would be losing gil. We've seen this situation 1 too many times.

[Orophin]

I think an initial listing fee would keep people from listing stuff at or less the prices that an NPC would buy an item for. It might also make people think before what they list an item for.