Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

[vasdeferens]

I loved the unrelenting punishment of FFXI

[OptimalZedd]

FFXI might be archaic, but i think the game now is following game that leaded us wrong path...

[Amberion]

There's a reason why the game did not break a million subscriptions while even games nowadays that are considered failures hold onto double or more.

That is because that there where less MMO gamers back then. And once the MMO scene increased, they did not want to join a 5+ year old game. So they went to wow or other new games.

If you wanted to start playing a shooter, would you go for a new game, or would you go for good old DooM?

[Noshpan]

I tried out XI a few years back... I didn't enjoy it. At all. I got more enjoyment when I first played the original EverQuest in 2000.

[Hyrist]

Could not possibly disagree more with pretty much every single thing you said.

And I'm more than willing to engage you on any point you may raise. I loved FFXI, but it was very fundamentally flawed game on a multitude of levels. The rose-tinted glasses that players have over it when looking at it most often stem from nostalgia and/or ignorance of the field as a whole. It was an incredibly niche game that appealed only to a very small crowd, and was often out-shined in many ways by even its own peers of its era.


What it was, however, was Final Fantasy's first ever online game, and that was enough to endear roughly half a million players past it's absolutely abysmal learning curve. There are indeed positives to FFXI, but most of them have already been adapted in one shape or form in my opinon, and any further steps stem dangerously on the level of repeating the same flaws that kept the game down where its community had to insult WoW as some low-quality game (Akin to how McDonalds is a low quality food establishment) in order to justify their fandom of FFXI in the sight of its success.

And I don't even like WoW. I've never held a paid subscription. I'm just able to view this situation a tad more objectively.

What FFXI managed to craft is a community of Final Fantasy fans. As hotly as we may disagree some times, we all share in the love of the passion for storytelling that Final Fantasy enthralls its fans into. FFXI did this much right without question. FFXIV captured this as well. The rest of the 'social' aspects that stemmed from FFXI are still there in FFXIV, it's not as predominant because FFXI instilled a LOT of downtime into its mechanics, things that both FFXI players bemoaned for years, and that FFXIV endgame players actually hate as well. The rest of the community success? That was the community itself, not anything the developers created. We looked for one another, we spoke up, we explored - especially when we were bored. The community filled and fueled itself in shared interests and commiseration.

Granted, that same community had its own flaws, but such is human nature.

The FFXI Developers did not make this. The FFXI players did, and it seems like many have forgotten that. Those that loved the game in spite of the flaws, filled the void produced by those same flaws, much like FFXIV Legacy players did. Thats why we have players that remember camping Fafnir/Nidhogg fondly, while others abhor it. That's why there are good memories of the hard Chains of Promithia battle successes even though they were poorly executed and heavily bottle-necked.

You also have to take into account that it is also because people bored by WoW's retardness. FF11 is slow because it is using first generation MMORPG concept and it does not mean for casual playing. It is also more fun for a real gamer.

"Real gamer" betrays your bias, which I wholeheartedly disapprove of.

By what credo does any individual, community, or culture have any right to claim the title of 'real gamer'? It incredibly egotistical to even assume that even if there was a set archetype, that that archetype actually was appealed to by FFXI's mechanics. And it is a thinly veiled insult to anyone who did not like the game for whatever reasons you don't approve of.

Attitudes like that lead to a growing divide between gaming communities. We're all 'real' gamers. I don't think I can continue a discussion beyond that point if you're elevating one group above others so blatantly.

[Shiyo]

Seekers really alienated many players.

This is also exactly the type of gear reset everyone should expect every level cap increase/expansion for this game as well. Of course there won't be gear that takes years to get being reset, but gear will be reset THIS HARD with new gear completely outclassing it.

I'm glad gear is extremely boring in this so I don't really care if my gear gets reset or not, or care about gear at all, I only care about having enough gear to do the hardest current content in the game.

[Positron]

2. ...Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, and Nyzul Isle?

Oh god, please no. At least, not in their forms. Don't get me wrong, I loved Limbus and Salvage (Dynamis and Nyzul? ...not so much), but the combination of sheer amount of time spent per run, with, most critically, the fact that with inter-run dependencies, only the people whose schedules allowed them to make it to EVERY SINGLE RUN ever had a significantly high chance of getting anything decent... I'd rather not see that in this game.

6. ...Sky/Sea...HNM...2hr...Race-specific equipment; Skillchains

Sky/Sea: Within reason, agreed.
HNM: No, please no. I'm pretty sure anyone who found those fun was lying to themselves to dull the pain of reality.
2hr: That could be fun.
RSE: Sure, but not the FFXI way. The FFXI RSE sucked.
Skillchains: THIS! Can we please have this!?

Edit: Had to edit quotes and remove some responses due to length restriction.

[Hyrist]

That is because that there where less MMO gamers back then. And once the MMO scene increased, they did not want to join a 5+ year old game. So they went to wow or other new games.

If you wanted to start playing a shooter, would you go for a new game, or would you go for good old DooM?

FFXI was 3 when WoW came out, and by your justification, WoW's subscriptions should have stopped cold at the next release, instead it continued to grow, exponentially.

FFXI's stagnant, but stable base was due to their unwillingness to change with the times, and instead forge their own path. It's laudable, but it ignored even it's own base on so many issues repeatedly over the years that it shed as much as it kept even though it re-released itself multiple times to various regions and platforms.

And shooters are a bad, bad analogy. If you wanted to introduce someone to Final Fantasy, which game would you choose? You probably wouldn't start them on XIII-2 or Lightning Returns now, would you?

I'm not saying that having a contrasting opinion in inherently wrong, but I most defiantly disagree with it and fear that drawing too hard on a single source, especially one with such a mixed global reputation as FFXI is not a wise course of action. What inspiration that could be gleaned from FFXI's systems could likely find much, much better examples in other games, even if we had to look outside the MMO field.

[Amberion]

FFXI was 3 when WoW came out, and by your justification, WoW's subscriptions should have stopped cold at the next release, instead it continued to grow, exponentially.

There really wasn't even a very good MMORPG made after WOW. So even to this day, WoW is the newest greatest MMORPG.

As for FF games i would recommend... Well, I haven't particularly liked any of the single player once after 9. For me, the whole voice acting and not being able to change my characters name have made the game lose some immersion.

But I will counter, would you recommend The Elder Scroll: Arena or one of the newest of the Elder scrolls game?

Anyway, I don't think anyone says to make it exactly like FFXI, just use more things from it. I enjoyed farming Sky with my LS. We even went and got claim on fafnir once when we where bored... Didn't kill it though since we where to few. BTW, Sea sucked, so hope they don't take from that.

[vasdeferens]

I also loved the sense of adventure and exploration I experienced playing FFXI, especially when I didn't have a map of the area. The maps were HUGE compared to FFXIV, and this has nothing to do with 2 years worth of added content for the NA release--remember leaving Ronfaurre for the first time to reach La Theine Plateau and it just seeming incredibly immense? Compare Xarcabard or Beaucedine Glacier, or any unbelievably large area that filled the world of Vana'diel with any zone in Eorzea and the you will be poorly let down. It took 10-20 minutes to cross some of those zones, and in many cases much much longer when incompetent party members couldn't make the trek alive in one try...

Now think of those wonderfully humongous zones with the teleport capabilities FFXIV has available and you've got a winning combination