Shroud of Saints mana regen should not be static

[CalvatE]

Because every 'tick' of everything (DoT, passive recoveries, whatever) happens every 3 seconds. And a minute is 60s so that is the number of tics in a minute.

So... What Pharazon was calculating was both SoS and base MP regen too? Cause I don't really consider base MP regeneration to be added when it'll be the same for SCH too.

[Estellios]

In 1.0, WHM had an ability that reduced your current hp by 1/4, and gradually built up a store of MP that capped out at the amount of HP you lost. If you played FF11, it was basically Sublimation but with the HP cost up-front.

Anyways, I wonder if that ability would return when the level cap gets raised to help with mana issues.

I'd also imagine we will get more Shroud boosting traits as our level goes up too.

[Klive]

Folks, my point isn't that shroud needs a mana buff, or that WHMs have a mana issue, or that SCHs have higher mana regen.

So... in short WHM mana regen is fine and doesn't need a buff. YET it needs to be changed for... reasons?

Ever hear the saying, "If it isn't broke don't fix it"?

[Pharazon]

Folks, my point isn't that shroud needs a mana buff, or that WHMs have a mana issue, or that SCHs have higher mana regen.

It's that shroud needs a piety component, for worse or better doesn't matter, the point is that it should scale with a stat instead of a static amount.

The main problem with adding a PIE component to shroud is that you are inherently giving it a mana boost by letting it scale beyond the 1060 mp that it regens now. As SE have mana regen set up now your passive regen scales up with PIE and shroud becomes a smaller percentage of your pool. Because the mana cost of our spells is fixed as our mana pool grows we will need shroud less and less and it will transition into more of a potion tacked on to a mana dump.



Let me redo some of my earlier math with correct numbers:


Cure I costs 133 MP and has a base cast time of 2 seconds.

Assume a mana pool of 4000 (roughly the mana pool you have when working on coil)

(These arent meant to be real world scenarios only to demonstrate the current WHM regen set up)

For every 3 casts of Cure I you will have lost 399 mana but passively regened 160 mp for a net loss of 239 mp every 6 seconds. Assuming you are waiting on shroud to come off cooldown you will have lost 4780 mp of which shroud will give you back 1060 for a total mana deficit of 3720.



Now lets assume we are much further down the road and shroud is a much smaller portion of our mana pool so we will double our mana pool for the purpose of illustration.

Your Cure 1 for every 3 casts is still using 399 mp but now you are regening 320 mp during the same time for a net loss of 79 mp. Over the course of a shroud cooldown you will have lost 1580 mp or only 520 mp total mana deficit after using shroud.


And that's not taking into account the fact that the larger mana pool is giving you access to more heals both efficient and not or that your other stats will have scaled meaning you shouldnt have to use as many heals. Also even in the extreme example that you have an 8k mana pool shroud still counts for a little over 13% of your mana so its not like its just going to become a tiny fraction anytime soon.


I'm not sure why you think shroud should scale with PIE since our passive already does but if its because you feel you are running out of mana then either the people you run with are not doing their jobs properly or your not. You have some room for error as it stands now but not a ton, and only a bit more if you have access to a bard. Anyway I hope this clears up my particular viewpoint on both shroud and our mana situation in general. You dont have to agree but I wanted to at least provide some info as to why I think this.

[Syncness]

I'm not sure why you think shroud should scale with PIE since our passive already does but if its because you feel you are running out of mana then either the people you run with are not doing their jobs properly or your not. You have some room for error as it stands now but not a ton, and only a bit more if you have access to a bard. Anyway I hope this clears up my particular viewpoint on both shroud and our mana situation in general. You dont have to agree but I wanted to at least provide some info as to why I think this.

Just like you said, as our mana pool grows, we'll need shroud less.

So eventually a skill becomes useless and is only used for the threat dump.

How's that any good?

[Syncness]

Holy crap, how do people not understand this isn't about buffing or nerfing the skill, it's about modifying shroud so it scales with a dynamic value.

How to comprehension?!??

[e] The post this was replying to was deleted (seems by a mod since player deletion leaves a bar).

[Rainsford]

Considering how Aetherflow works, I really don't understand why Shroud wouldn't work the same way. I always assumed it did.

So if I raise my MP on my SCH by, say, 300 points and the WHM does too, over a 5 minute fighting I'm essentially adding an EXTRA 300 mp to my own pool through Aetherflow as opposed to the WHM. That doesn't really make sense to me.

And saying Shroud is OP because it's a threat dump is sort of silly too. I've never, ever pulled threat while healing on my SCH. I can chain-cast every heal I have while chugging Ethers and, because of the way SCH healing mechanics work, I never have to worry about threat. Seems like WHM sort of got the short end here.

[Pharazon]

Holy crap, how do people not understand this isn't about buffing or nerfing the skill, it's about modifying shroud so it scales with a dynamic value.

How to comprehension?!??

Either you didn't read or didn't comprehend the information I put in my post. You CAN NOT ask for shroud to scale and not have it be BUFFED. The definition of buffing something is making it stronger, and by scaling with Piety as you suggested it would exceed the current mana return of 1060 mp which would be making it stronger than it is now and thus........ wait for it ....... BUFFING IT!!! LoL

Just like you said, as our mana pool grows, we'll need shroud less.

So eventually a skill becomes useless and is only used for the threat dump.

How's that any good?

If you read my post I point to the fact that shroud will not become "useless" until a gear level which we cannot even know when we will reach. In addition at any gear level shroud still provides the same number of heals since the cost of heals doesn't scale so you will always get 8 cure Is worth of mp back regardless of how large your mana pool is.

I don't see the point in worrying about a skill, what may be a year or more, in advance of when it might become "useless" and even before we've reached a point where its giving us back less than 20% of our mana pool (would need a mana pool of over 5300 for this to happen).



Now to be perfectly clear I am not disagreeing that shroud could benefit from a redesign, I am simply saying that these concerns are not going to be relevant for such a long time that it's nearly pointless to be worry about them. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing shroud be set to a percentage of your mana pool like 20% which would give you the same basic result as having it scale with piety and would ensure shroud would have the same effect on your mana pool every time you used it, but it is by no means needed at this point and so long as by the next tier of gear or maybe even the next (depending on the ilvl jump) SE adjusts shroud we will be fine.

[Slark]

I find it really frustrating that OP brings up a very strong point on the future of Shroud, yet quite a few people in here completely ignore it, take his/her words out of context, and argue about something trivial and semi-unrelated.

Shroud needs PIE scaling for a few reasons.
1) Shroud is a flat-rate amount that will lose its mana-regen purposes, and turn into threat dump with "a little extra mana" tacked onto the side.
2) WHMs currently have extremely little control over how to manage mana, or gear for it. For example, opening Shroud up for PIE scaling may offer more incentives to invest in PIE attributes, effectively increasing our options for itemization/stat choices.
3) Gearing PIE currently is pretty lackluster right now, and all of it's benefits are passive, meaning it doesn't really change gameplay much.

Also, like people have said in this thread already, Shroud's threat dump and mana regen need to be separated into two separate skills.
I don't want shroud buffed, I just want it to scale according to content.
Also, you most certainly can adjust an ability to scale from a flat-amount without buffing it for current content.
You factor in the increase from scaling, then reduce the flat amount accordingly. For instance, someone with full DL and maybe non-+1 relic would have a shroud of 1060. Someone with Relic+1 and a piece or two of myth (just starting out in coil) would have a shroud of 1080 or so. Someone in full ilvl90 with relic+1 may have a shroud of 1150-1250 or so. Most people are in full DL with a few Myth pieces right now, and if you had full Ilvl90, you are way overgeared for current content, obviously having everything including turn 5 on farm status. People would not see much of a change, except the fact that it remains valuable mana regeneration come 6 months from now.

[Slark]

*Damn 1000 character cap* Also, To all those comparing Shroud and Aetherflow, please remember Shroud has a two-minute cool down, so when Aetherflow gives 900 mana, it actually gives 1800 when compared to Shroud, excluding the 6 stacks of Aetherflow, which could potentially turn into another large chunk of mana/free heals/free damage. Aetherflow stacks can also be stacked pre-battle, meaning that you start fights with 3 stacks, increasing your mana potential beyond normal levels. I'm not advocating for WHM mana buffs, but it most certainly is clear who has the advantage when it comes to mana regeneration, and who has more choices regarding mana management. PIE is triple-duty for SCH, because it increases max mana, increases mana Regen, and increases Aetherflow potential, so things will only get worse as time goes on.

When you get more PIE as SCH, you may think: "Yay! Bigger Aetherflow return!" and actually see numbers increasing, which to me, signals improvement and progression. This makes it a much more fun stat than the WHM equivalent, which is nothing. Things only will get worse. While we may always get 8 Cures out of Shroud, SCH will continually get more and more Adloquium/Physicks out of theirs. To anybody advocating the current non-scaling Shroud in favor of passive mana regeneration being "just fine", I ask you this: Why? Why on earth would you advocate passive mana Regen to be your main form of mana regeneration? That is literally zero fun. It has extremely limited gear choices, it is less interactive, and it offers zero control over your resources, which is stupid because mages, especially healers, are largely based around how well they can manage their mana.

My biggest concerns are mana management and preventing powercreep. Nobody wants skills that become useless halfway to the first expansion. I've played MMO's for 11 years. If Shroud does not have a scaling, I can safely say it will suck a year from now if newly released gear from harder content is always an upgrade like in WoW.