[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

[Viridiana]

Wait, isn't the entirety of hate management at the moment "Don't buff unless the tank has been buffing"? I mean, I know when I tank, that's pretty much literally all I do: Punch (to start the fight), 'voke, taunt, buff, buff, buff, buff, 'voke, buff, buff, buff, taunt, 'voke. . . crap, I'm out of buttons, guess I should punch, 'voke. . .

Pretty much the only way to pull hate in this game is to buff and use things that specifically give you enmity. Granted, I can't speak much for the mage classes, because I don't play them much; but the only time I've ever seen them pull aggro (assuming the tank is trying at all) is with AoE buffs. Even then, after the battle's been going for a few, that doesn't really work, either.

What I'm getting at here is that I don't see this changing how anyone will play. We've all agreed that nothing changes for the tank, but I don't see anything changing for the dps/healers, either. Once the tank firmly establishes hate (which, remember hasn't changed at all), everyone else will open up just as much as they used to, if not moreso.

[Tokenkauph]

Since we have limited info on the new battle system I cannot say for sure what adding a hate meter into the game will do. i am sure SE could come up with a way to make it skillful and fun. The following comments are based on why I would not want a hate meter in FFXIV "As it is currently" or in FFXI since I have played both games.


I think a hate meter just makes the game more predictable which sounds boring to me. As a healer I want to make quick calculations in my head in order to decide if I should cast Cure 3 in the heat of battle over Cure 2. Because Cure 3 might heal my tank up enough to take an extra hit or two so I can have time to cast cure 2 save a DD who is off tanking a add. But Cure 3 might also pull the hate over to me which means the battle may turn a different way. By adding the hate meter you are taking this dynamic away and to me it is these things that make combat fun. Hitting the same 5 keys over and over again trying to keep a meter from filling to full is not fun to me.

[Cogs]

Depending on how and if the new battle changes actually find a way to thoughtfully implement a skill-full way utilizing a tool such as a hate meter. That's still all it is, "a metric of hate". We need to ask ourselves is it something that is really Needed?
Rather SE needs to tell us Why it is needed first before implementing it.

At the present state of the game I don't believe it's needed at all. Do I believe that SE will totally revolutionize the new battle system that a hate meter will need to be implemented. No I don't. The Dev's past few updates there have been relevant complaints from the FFXIV fan base about the game being made too easy with having implemented such things such as the "icon" next to monsters that aggro.

At this point I fear a hate meter will become just another toggelable displayed icon. So that if you are a tank it will then become even easier watch Television shows while playing this game, only glancing back at your screen every few seconds to check that your Hate % is high or is the highest, and then with fingers placed on your "voke" button, go back to watching your TV show of choice. Just another enhancement to this game that will make it easier to play on autopilot.

I would like a post from SE as to why they feel they need to implement a hate meter. It def needs to be explained to us why it makes sense to do so, because I think a lot of the debate we are having is divided between people that like the idea of knowing where they stand so that they can perform more efficiently, on the other side is the people that like the idea of not knowing because of the excitement from having to keep on your toes. To me personally Id rather not know. I feel like all the little subtle / yet intricate mysteries of this game that do add excitement like "Does this monsters aggro?", or "do I have enough or too much hate on Uraeus?" Seem to be slowly disappearing.

[Sanlord]

Booom... We need it and point. it's a casual/hardcore game.

[Shikyo]

as long as enimity works properly, I dont see a need for a hate meter I really hope they dont add this its like FF for dummies wasnt need in XI and u knew how to control hate, if u didnt thats was your ass and thats the way it should be.

[Arcell]

I also don't believe that implementing this will encourage people to try things they might not have done before. If you're not already trying to play your job to the fullest without this system then you're just gimping yourself. And to think that a tool like this is needed to make people play their jobs as efficiently as possible is just sad. Is it me or is today's gamer generation really that unconfident in their decision making abilities that they need tools to tell them what to do?

Well maybe it's because hate is kind of screwy right now but I hold back on it as it is now. I don't know where my hate is and I've pulled off a tank by just attacking with Out of Sight on. I've also gone through entire fights without the enemy so much as looking at me with Intimidation on. Anything that might pull additional unnecessary hate is something I stay away from and that includes most buffs. The system seems to just go all over the place sometimes, it often makes no sense. When the enmity algorithms are fixed maybe it will be a different story.

I'm not sure where the "generation of gamer" comment comes in. I've been playing for 15+ years now, first system was a Genesis. I've been quite vocal on wanting challenge however showing simple data doesn't really make things easier for me. If a fight is challenging then it will be so whether or not I know the state of my enmity. You know Monster Hunter doesn't display health bars on any of it's monsters, maybe we should do that because it makes the fight more fun not knowing how far along you are in a timed fight. You really have to get a feel for how long it takes you to kill a monster, or just fail miserably without any indication. Don't get me wrong, love MH though.

I'm neither in favor or against the system, I can just see situations where it would be nice. Seems like they're adding it either way so I'm just looking on the bright side.

[Bittereye]

Just for the sake of argument, what games current use something like this?

The only game that I've seen so far that uses this is TERA Online. I saw a video on YouTube where a developer was discussing that there is a red circle indicator around the player's feet to indicate who has hate. That indicator will slide over to the mages if they take the hate away.

Hearing everyone's views about this has me on the fence about it myself. At first glance, I thought it was a welcome addition but now that I hear both arguments, I'm not sure what to think about it anymore. Let's see what it's like first before deciding against it or for it. They can always tweak things in the patch after.

[kukurumei]

The only game that I've seen so far that uses this is TERA Online. I saw a video on YouTube where a developer was discussing that there is a red circle indicator around the player's feet to indicate who has hate. That indicator will slide over to the mages if they take the hate away.

Hearing everyone's views about this has me on the fence about it myself. At first glance, I thought it was a welcome addition but now that I hear both arguments, I'm not sure what to think about it anymore. Let's see what it's like first before deciding against it or for it. They can always tweak things in the patch after.

Hate identifier is not a hate meter.

So far WoW/Clones have it as a plug in system. The most used and necessary one actually since no raid goes without it if they're smart.

[Ava]

When I read that part of the post I didn't read "hate meter". I'm sure what they are looking at is some kind of identifier icon showing your approximate level of hate. Maybe something like a green/yellow/red system where it doesn't tell you your threshold but rather tells you approximately where you stand.

[MeowyWowie]

When I read that part of the post I didn't read "hate meter". I'm sure what they are looking at is some kind of identifier icon showing your approximate level of hate. Maybe something like a green/yellow/red system where it doesn't tell you your threshold but rather tells you approximately where you stand.

Furthermore, a player’s enmity will be made constantly visible as a percentage of that of the party member being attacked.

Quoted from battle reform post. It's clearly going to be a meter that displays your current enmity percentage compared to the person with hate. It will either be a bar or just straight up numbers.

Edt: Put the important part in bold.