The markets, stalls, price listing and undercutting. (A suggestion)

[Peregrine]

This is what crafting always turns into. It's boom and bust mentality. Greed and day trading rule the system.
Stop caring so much about making gil to play the futures market. Red lenses? Silver alembics? Those products were oversights. Black pearl rings? Worse than ipods.

There is nothing more pathetic than to see every ballin' hustler, moneymoneymoneydolladolladolla, and playa-playa on the server scramble their resources to make black pearl rings as the last show in town.

Just stop caring so much about jockeying for market position. You aren't special. You never were. Hopefully gil in FFXIV is always like this--just about as relevant as in an offline FF.

Besides, the people who own all the futures market are botters now. You'll never be able to keep up now that they've been able to cheat their way to 5 R50 crafts.

[Swev]

I still think the runescape idea is best. I hate the real life market stuff that MMO's now days have. I like the supply and demand of priceing of items in auctions to be computer automated and changed and lowered of prices only can go so far per day or per week by the demand of the item that is up for sale. Also make it so the sale of the item is in order of who put what in the market at a cartin time to be able to purchese that item first. So it sorta in a line up so stuff gets sold fairly not just who ever has lowest price gets all the profits and he keeps on selling it at a low cost and keeps on racking doe. *mass producing item*...

[sketch]

I still think the runescape idea is best. I hate the real life market stuff that MMO's now days have. I like the supply and demand of priceing of items in auctions to be computer automated and changed and lowered of prices only can go so far per day or per week by the demand of the item that is up for sale. Also make it so the sale of the item is in order of who put what in the market at a cartin time to be able to purchese that item first. So it sorta in a line up so stuff gets sold fairly not just who ever has lowest price gets all the profits and he keeps on selling it at a low cost and keeps on racking doe. *mass producing item*...

the problem isnt supply and demand its that u have to pump out a lot of items to lvl crafts, while some like weaver make mats others like goldsmith can really only lvl of finished goods and then they end up having more then they can even sell

[Azurymber]

xbox and ps3 is a two tiered sale item, you can use either without buying their software, it would be equivalent to selling bows cheap, if after that every single person had to buy your arrows, this type of model doesnt exist in this game.

Also, xbox and ps3 were expensive initially because they were a new business, the costs of production go down rapidly over time. the only analog in this market is making something when its 10 levels higher than you, but without being able to sell crafter exclusive arrows there is no incentive for that model.

You can bring up these things, but the fact is this the system is not even close to analgous to a real free market system, and even that needs a lot of oversight. Im not really that mad about it, you dont really need the market that much in this game. But its obvious that the end result of this games economy is going to be pretty screwy. The key to any business model is too make profit, in this game, that is not a lot of peoples goal, so it will never work.

To the above dude even the main proponent of the invisible hand said it needed the government to step in and stop collusion. In case you didnt study your history, go look up the industrial revolution, without unions, government controls like minimum wage, anti trust laws, FDA and various other outside forces, this system would have ended in bloody war.

Collusion doesn't work..... look at OPEC. Companies that collude have an incentive to cheat in order to outprofit the other companies, and they always will. And you clearly have no idea about what Adam Smith was talking about.
Gov't intervention is necessary. But this game is simple, there is no way to control a resource yet, there is no way to cause negative externalities. The invisible hand clearly works.

And this game DOES have a market economy that is functional

Seriously you're trying to argue that 2+2 = 5. You obviously don't understand how economies function and you're trying to make up BS arguments based on things you've probably heard about on fox news. If you don't know what you're talking about please don't try to pretend that you do. A number of people here have pointed out how wrong you are. These aren't like "theoretical" concepts. They are mathematical models based on proven science. Yes they aren't all perfect. But you aren't even getting near the imperfections of them in regards to this game.

And i'm sorry if i sound mean its just annoying to always read people arguing things about economics that is so utterly wrong. I understand you aren't familiar with it and have probably learned some skewed version of history. But PLEASE just go and actually learn the basics before you come on here and try to argue something that is so far from reality.

[Peregrine]

I still think the runescape idea is best. I hate the real life market stuff that MMO's now days have. I like the supply and demand of priceing of items in auctions to be computer automated and changed and lowered of prices only can go so far per day or per week by the demand of the item that is up for sale. Also make it so the sale of the item is in order of who put what in the market at a cartin time to be able to purchese that item first. So it sorta in a line up so stuff gets sold fairly not just who ever has lowest price gets all the profits and he keeps on selling it at a low cost and keeps on racking doe. *mass producing item*...

Your position is obviously one of a guy who puts his items up for way too much gil, then sees it parked there getting passed up by crafter after crafter because their prices aren't competitive.

Lower your prices dude.

If I see some hustler trying to get 3 million gil off a +1 weapon or tool, hell. I'll make one and put it up just to send that person a message. They think, "YEAH 0 up on the market I can charge what I want!"

Haha no you can't. Well, you can try to get away with it.
The market keeps you honest.

[Swev]

Your position is obviously one of a guy who puts his items up for way too much gil, then sees it parked there getting passed up by crafter after crafter because their prices aren't competitive.

Lower your prices dude.

If I see some hustler trying to get 3 million gil off a +1 weapon or tool, hell. I'll make one and put it up just to send that person a message. They think, "YEAH 0 up on the market I can charge what I want!"

Haha no you can't. Well, you can try to get away with it.
The market keeps you honest.

actully i dont sell stuff much at all. People need to stop asuming things / trolling...

[Physic]

Collusion doesn't work..... look at OPEC. Companies that collude have an incentive to cheat in order to outprofit the other companies, and they always will. And you clearly have no idea about what Adam Smith was talking about.
Gov't intervention is necessary. But this game is simple, there is no way to control a resource yet, there is no way to cause negative externalities. The invisible hand clearly works.

And this game DOES have a market economy that is functional

Seriously you're trying to argue that 2+2 = 5. You obviously don't understand how economies function and you're trying to make up BS arguments based on things you've probably heard about on fox news. If you don't know what you're talking about please don't try to pretend that you do. A number of people here have pointed out how wrong you are. These aren't like "theoretical" concepts. They are mathematical models based on proven science. Yes they aren't all perfect. But you aren't even getting near the imperfections of them in regards to this game.

And i'm sorry if i sound mean its just annoying to always read people arguing things about economics that is so utterly wrong. I understand you aren't familiar with it and have probably learned some skewed version of history. But PLEASE just go and actually learn the basics before you come on here and try to argue something that is so far from reality.

I have studied economics, and its a whole lot of fudging numbers and hindsight and theories, for every economic theory there is another one opposing it out there. The test of history has shown, that purely capitialist economies destroy themselves. this is why the current most successful economic models are mixed economies. The invisible hand of greed, at the end of the day serves greed, the idea that greed will balance everything out, in reality proves to be false.

But this is all aside from the real point, it boils down to having competition with people who dont need to make profit, or people who have vastly different concepts of what thier time is worth.

Like i said, its just a game, i would probably prefer a half assed economy to a real live and die economy that ends up having everyone serving the purpose of only the people on top, but its foolish to think that an economy where the only way to make profit is to make the item from start to finish, and it sells for less in manhours than you can make killing random monsters, is a successful economy.

[Xenor]

People undercut because they want their shit to sell first not because of prices. I just undercut people who undercut me. Like the guy who put 16 stacks of silver arrows up at 1k per stack less than I was charging for my 2 stacks. I went and put them up for 1k less than he was charging. So he had to go put his 16 stacks back up for 1k under mine. It's more hassle for them than me in that situation.

But in some situations I won't undercut the undercutter because I know they're being retarded selling their shit 20-50% cheaper when what they're selling sells like hot cakes. Happens when people are inexperienced in certain markets, usually materials. I make a fortune just buying their cheap shit, combining it with my stack and relisting it sometimes.

[Azurymber]

I have studied economics, and its a whole lot of fudging numbers and hindsight and theories, for every economic theory there is another one opposing it out there. The test of history has shown, that purely capitialist economies destroy themselves. this is why the current most successful economic models are mixed economies. The invisible hand of greed, at the end of the day serves greed, the idea that greed will balance everything out, in reality proves to be false.

But this is all aside from the real point, it boils down to having competition with people who dont need to make profit, or people who have vastly different concepts of what thier time is worth.

Like i said, its just a game, i would probably prefer a half assed economy to a real live and die economy that ends up having everyone serving the purpose of only the people on top, but its foolish to think that an economy where the only way to make profit is to make the item from start to finish, and it sells for less in manhours than you can make killing random monsters, is a successful economy.

I'm sorry but capitalist economies have proved -by far- to be the most successful.
And the fact that you think economics is fudging numbers proves you haven't actually studied it.
Economics is based on MODELS which make assumptions. There is -no- number fudging. Economists might fudge numbers in their specific job or for a specific study, but actual economics is MODELS not numbers.
There has NEVER been a purely capitalist economy. The closest thing was the industrial revolution in Britain, and that pulled tons of people out of horrible poverty. It was a HUGE jump in the standard of living there.

There USED to be a lot of opposing theories based on the assumptions behind economics. Luckily we now have these cool ways of scanning peoples brains so now Neuroeconomics can and has scientifically proven a number of assumptions.

For example you say: "The invisible hand of greed, at the end of the day serves greed, the idea that greed will balance everything out, in reality proves to be false. "

This is probably the most incorrect statement you have made.
Neuroeconomics has scientifically proven that the average person, regardless of culture, race, etc, is only interested in relative and not absolute gains
This means humans are not naturally greedy but want -MORE- than the people around them. Thats what makes people happy. Having more than others. Not just having more.
That is why "greed is good". Capitalism is built around the notion that people are greedy because THEY ARE. 50 years ago you might have argued otherwise but it is now SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN.

If you've studied economics you have studied some biased version of it because you really have no concept of how it works at all, and you keep proving it over and over again.

And you can't say the most successful economies are mixed because ALL ECONOMIES ARE MIXED. The fact you would say that just shows you don't understand basic economic concepts.

[Peregrine]

"it boils down to having competition with people who dont need to make profit, or people who have vastly different concepts of what thier time is worth."

This is exactly what it boils down to. If it's not worth your time, don't do it. You can't really sit there and complain that the immigrants are taking your jobs in a MMORPG. You don't deserve any standard wage. You don' thave worker's rights. You either sell it for the cheapest, or you don't sell it. No one's going to help you out here. Government dime isn't going to subsidize you washing dishes at 15 bucks an hour here.