What is an item worth?

[Wazabi]

The value of something is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for it and how much others are willing to sell it at.

At your expectation, I have to make an appearance here, and since I'm having more free time in the office this week.

To sum up the quote above, I would say the fair price is the price that clears the market at that point of time. The idea of a fair price is a moot point in my opinion as it is always in a constant state of flux. I need 5 fireshard to craft an item for quest turn-in...so even though the "regular" price of fireshard is 35, I will be willing to pay much more for it at this particular point in time. As for seller, I'm willing to sell this at a higher than normal price because I'm not in a hurry to liquidate that item...the reverse would be true if I want it out of my inventory in a hurry.

*snip*

I'm going to address the "selling at a loss" point you made. I make something that cost me 100, I sold the finished goods at 50, so I'm making a loss of 50. That defies logical human behaviour...but yet it happens in MMO. Why? Because I get xp for crafting that item. So...do I really make a loss of 50? Or did I just paid 50 for the crafting xp?

When I level my crafter, that's exactly what I did, crafting new recipies and selling them at a loss. I don't think I'm stupid, but I do see it as paying gils to level my craft faster...so it justifies selling the item at a big discount just so that I can liquidate it quick and get part of my money back.

As you've said, and item is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, and I'm willing to pay for my crafting xp. So even though a business model of selling something below cost does not makes sense (but it does happen occasionally for the reason stated below), it actually makes sense in MMO because of the xp you gain. Even on items that I speculate in the market...there are times where I sell them at a lower price than when I bought them just to get rid of it (failed speculation). Bad traders hold on to their losses...good trader cuts their losses and move on.

Now, on about your comment on Walmart. What people see is that they put some mom and pop shop out of business. What I'm asking here is just to make a fair assessment. What about the cheaper price that benefits the consumers? Especially the lower income group? By saying that selling something cheap/undercutting is bad, you're essentially stating that finding a way to do something more effectively is bad! Heck, steam engine is bad because of all the manual labor that it replaces! Autocad is bad because it reduces the number of drafters a company needs to hire! Accounting software is bad because it reduces the number of job demand for bookkeeper!

What economic studies is the effective distribution of scarce resource, and thus any way to improve that efficiency is good for the economy as a whole. Yes, those who failed to keep up will suffer, just like the mom and pop shops that Walmart puts out of business...but that's just evolution, and evolution is cruel.

The fate of these small shops are a separate issue to be dealt with...a morality issue. I symphatize those that are left out...but they'll have to make a choice there and then....to improve and adapt, or to go extinct. If you are so "anti-walmart" or "anti-big business", then stop buying from them, and get your groceries from a mom and pop shop...no one is stopping you from doing it. If you can't find any, and if you think there's a demand for more expansive items from small time dealers that runs their business less effectively, then open a shop for that. Again, no one is stopping you from doing it.

Society will do what they can to assist these people...but most choose to go all "crybaby" on these structural changes when they fail to adapt, much like what we see in the MMO communities.

[Kazamoto]

Now, on about your comment on Walmart. What people see is that they put some mom and pop shop out of business. What I'm asking here is just to make a fair assessment. What about the cheaper price that benefits the consumers? Especially the lower income group?

Society will do what they can to assist these people...but most choose to go all "crybaby" on these structural changes when they fail to adapt, much like what we see in the MMO communities.

Those lower prices come at a cost. Those "Mom and Pop" shops generally had better wages than walmart and paid people a living wage. Walmart intentionally does not pay a living wage allowing society to pick up the slack.

Many of those in the lower income group, are there because of Walmart, or are kept there by abysmal wages.

"The study, “Hidden Cost of Wal-Mart Jobs,” found that the average Wal-Mart worker required $730 in taxpayer-funded healthcare and $1,222 in other forms of assistance, such as food stamps and subsidized housing, to get by."

"There is strong evidence, however, Wal-Mart produces no net growth in employment. The jobs created by its stores replace other, often higher-paying, jobs at existing businesses that are forced to downsize or close."

http://www.ilsr.org/new-study-finds-...ost-taxpayers/

So yes, I can buy Pacific Rim for $5 dollars less than any other store, but the true cost to me is likely higher.

Heck, steam engine is bad because of all the manual labor that it replaces! Autocad is bad because it reduces the number of drafters a company needs to hire! Accounting software is bad because it reduces the number of job demand for bookkeeper!

Actually, technological advances like these are a shift in the labor force, not entirely a reduction. Because while you need less manual labor, the demand for mechanics and engineers increases. While you need less drafters you need more programmers and IT staff. Same with the accounting software, it reduces the need for book keepers but increases the demand for IT support staff.

What economic studies is the effective distribution of scarce resource, and thus any way to improve that efficiency is good for the economy as a whole. Yes, those who failed to keep up will suffer, just like the mom and pop shops that Walmart puts out of business...but that's just evolution, and evolution is cruel.

Here is where the parallel exists between walmart and FF14 (I bet a bunch of you were wondering where it was). The resource being abused in both situations is Labor.

Walmart forces its competitors to close their doors as they cannot afford to compete at walmart's price points. In the current FFXIV market, labor has no value.

And I grant you, some, including myself have paid to level a craft, loosing money on exp crafts, but I would never cut my prices to half the current going rate, or a third of the materials cost. If I listed at (going rate)-5% it is possible I could still profit, or at least break even.

An Item should cost: Materials + - 5%
An item is worth: Materials + Labor
An Item will sell for: What the seller is willing to let it go for, and a buyer is willing to spend.

And, since I can constantly adjust my prices, with no penalty, its always a race to the floor.

I'm not particularly anti-walmart, but I still acknowledge the damage they do to the economy. Just as I know my car burns dinosaurs, but I still drive it. It's the hypocriticality of modern life. We do what is bad for us, because it is easier.

I guess that's the problem.

[Conradus]

An Item should cost: Materials + - 5%
An item is worth: Materials + Labor

Wow, what a wonderful fantasy world you live in. No challenge, no brain work, just automatic profit, guaranteed. What you made is actually of no use to anybody? No worries, you still get paid.

An Item should cost: Whatever you can sell it for.
An item is worth: Whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

[Kazamoto]

Hence the + or - 5%, and this is not a world I live in, just what I feel would be a fair amount without the 'overcharging' that the undercutting crowd rallies behind.

I'm not sure why you had to throw in the personal attack. I did enjoy the part where you quoted me, then chose to either ignore what it said, or interpreted it wrong.

At -5% there is still loss, so no automatic profit.

If what you need is of no use to anyone, it will sit on the AH for a while until someone needs it, or you would be forced to NPC it. At least in FFXI you could Desynth items and get materials back.

No, you don't still get paid, because someone would still have to buy it.

By your logic, and following in your personal attacks. I would pay $0.00 for you and anyone you ever cared about. Thus, you and those others are worthless.

If you still feel somethings worth is entirely up to the buyer, then you must agree that you are worthless, and stop posting on this forum forever.

[Conradus]

Hence the + or - 5%, and this is not a world I live in, just what I feel would be a fair amount without the 'overcharging' that the undercutting crowd rallies behind.

I'm not sure why you had to throw in the personal attack. I did enjoy the part where you quoted me, then chose to either ignore what it said, or interpreted it wrong.

Not a personal attack, an attack on your ideas, which are ultimately unfair and unworkable. Services and manufacturers exist for the customer, not vice versa.

At -5% there is still loss, so no automatic profit.

But there is still automatic money, regardless of whether the item is of any use or not.

If what you need is of no use to anyone, it will sit on the AH for a while until someone needs it, or you would be forced to NPC it. At least in FFXI you could Desynth items and get materials back.

No, you don't still get paid, because someone would still have to buy it.

So you feel it's better for the crafter to not get paid at all than to get at least something?

By your logic, and following in your personal attacks. I would pay $0.00 for you and anyone you ever cared about. Thus, you and those others are worthless.

If you still feel somethings worth is entirely up to the buyer, then you must agree that you are worthless, and stop posting on this forum forever.

No, because you are not the only customer in the market. My employer finds me valuable and pays me a good salary. That's what someone is willing to pay for my services.

[Kazamoto]

Not a personal attack, an attack on your ideas, which are ultimately unfair and unworkable. Services and manufacturers exist for the customer, not vice versa.

Ideals are often impractical and unworkable in the real or digital world, this is true.

I ask though, unfair to who?
Sellers, who make a moderate income or limited loss, prompting them to continue to produce goods?

The buyers? With most buyers the most fair price would be free. But paying near the actual cost of the item, he ensures that the suppliers have little reason to leave the market for that good. (This mostly applies to crafted materials)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, when the price of the refined good drops to the cost of a single ingredient, I withdraw from that market, and just sell the ingredients. I'm not the only one to do this.

Goods and services do not exist solely for the customer, they also exist for the producer. They would not make the goods unless they felt they could get a fair price for them.

I'm not talking about the market for 3 ended marital aids that play 'What the Fox Say' on endless loop (which I imagine would be a rather niche market)

I'm talking about trade goods that have their value crashed constantly.

But there is still automatic money, regardless of whether the item is of any use or not.
So you feel it's better for the crafter to not get paid at all than to get at least something?

First you say my idea means automatic money, then you say not paid at all, which is it?

A can of Arizona Ice Tea is $0.99
If i buy it, or don't, it costs $.99, if it goes unsold and passes its expiration date, it gets tossed out, but it was still worth $.99 until that point.

No, because you are not the only customer in the market. My employer finds me valuable and pays me a good salary. That's what someone is willing to pay for my services.

But through the joys of undercutting, I will gladly pay you $0 now, and more often than your employer pays you. And faster sales are better than slower yes? And I can produce a constant demand for $0 manual labor.

[Sinaloa]

It is worth what they gonna pay you. If that´s less what it did cost you to craft it you sold the wrong item.

[Conradus]

A can of Arizona Ice Tea is $0.99
If i buy it, or don't, it costs $.99, if it goes unsold and passes its expiration date, it gets tossed out, but it was still worth $.99 until that point.

Unless I buy it from a discounter, and pay only 50 cents for it. It's worth 99 cents because people are willing to pay that, not because the grocery store says that's what it's worth.

But through the joys of undercutting, I will gladly pay you $0 now, and more often than your employer pays you. And faster sales are better than slower yes? And I can produce a constant demand for $0 manual labor.

Manufacturers and service providers exist for the sake of the customer, but the decision to sell or not is still theirs. I'm not interested in selling at that price, particularly since there are people willing to pay me considerably more. You are free to find people who will sell to you at that price. I wish you luck.

[Kazamoto]

It is worth what they gonna pay you. If that´s less what it did cost you to craft it you sold the wrong item.

Ehem...

Hold up son. Worth what they gonna pay? Lemmie slide up into a Ferrari dealership and slap about three fiddy down on the counter for a new 458. That's what its worth cuz that what I'm gonna pay.

[Conradus]

Ehem...

Hold up son. Worth what they gonna pay? Lemmie slide up into a Ferrari dealership and slap about three fiddy down on the counter for a new 458. That's what its worth cuz that what I'm gonna pay.

Once again you display the delusion that you are the only customer in the market. The Ferrari dealer will decline your generous offer because he has plenty of customers willing to pay much more.