Warrior is OP

[Vmage]

People who don't understand healing mechanics and cry that the tank class is broken...

heheh..

stoneskin is 18% of your target's HP as whm, 10% as scholar - on a paladin that 10% is effectively modified by their mitigation (20% from shield oath) AND timers, but let's forget about timers for now

on a warrior that 10% is a bigger number due to their 'mitigation' defiance

so lets say the paladin has a 1k stoneskin, and the warrior has a 1250 stoneskin (25% more hp from defiance means 25% bigger stoneskin)

now lets watch what happens when they each take a 1k damage hit

the warrior loses 1000 points off his stoneskin - leaving him with 250, the paladin loses 800 points instead of 1000 off his stoneskin (modified by shield oath) - leaving him with 200

want to guess what happens when they both take a 250 damage hit?

the warrior loses the last 250, leaving him with zero stoneskin, the paladin loses 200 instead of 250 (modified by shield oath) - leaving him with zero

oddly enough, outside of stoneskin the balance is shifted in favor of the paladin, not the warrior - full wrath stacks means 15% more healing taken vs. shield oath's 20% less damage taken

paladin effective health is higher than warrior - making every spell a whitemage or scholar could cast more effective on the paladin - except stoneskin, that one's a wash

[MageBlack]

I watched my dad play his WAR. He was doing Arum Vale and the DPS died on the first boss when he was only at half health. Between Him and the SCH they downed it! I was totally impressed.

[Hachiko]

Reduced damage is not the same thing as increased healing taken. You've obviously never played a healer in any MMORPG. You can't just say that the Paladin has more HP because he takes X% less damage.

You cannot add the reduced damage from the paladin stance and pretend that it's the same as adding HP to the warrior.
I'd continue this argument about how this game's version of last stand (whatever it's called) is infinitely better than sentinel but you're already on the band wagon that warriors suck. I'm siding with the game developers on this one.

Again with the wrongness. Reduced damage taken IS the same as increased healing received and it IS the same as increased EHP. It's EXACTLY the same because of something generally known as algebra.

Again, some more examples in case you need them:

If a boss does 1000 damage in an attack before any sort of damage reduction, how much healing does it take to bring the tank back to full?

Well for a WAR w/ 0 wrath stacks it will take 1000 additional healing to get them to full. For a WAR with 5 wrath stacks it will take ~870 healing to get them to full health.

For a paladin how much healing will it require to get them to full health? Well, the 1000 damage hit will be mitigated to 800 via shield oath. That means it will only take 800 healing to get them to full health.

25% of 800 is 200, and 200+800 = 1000, which is the original damage dealt prior to mitigation. Thus, by basic algebra we can see that a flat damage reduction % is effectively an increase in the healing received because it takes less healing to get the tank to where they were before the hit.

I think it's sad that you have absolutely no idea about the mechanics so intrinsic and fundamental to the job you play.

Also, LOL I want to hear your explanation as to why thrill of battle is a better defensive cooldown than Sentinel. Not only will sentinel put a PLD WAY above the EHP of a WAR with Thrill of Battle, but it will also be a huge reduction in the amount of healing necessary to keep the PLD up. I really am looking forward to your maths.

Here is mine. A PLD with sentinel has an effective HP modifier of Base HP *(1/.8)*(1/.6). For an average geared PLD (5500 HP) that puts them at 11458 EHP, and an effective mitigation of 48% (meaning they only take 48% of the bosses damage dealt).

For a WAR with 5500 base HP they would have 6875 in Defiance, and then 8250 EHP under Thrill of Battle. They get no additional mitigation, and the healing required to keep them alive is significantly higher than what is required for the PLD due to having no mitigation.

Please post your math and/or explanation.

[TitusAldin]

snip.

"Reality check" there is no "hope" (see what i did there) your not gonna win that debate, they are both war and pld, they seem to know their respective classes very well, one even has a healer sooo...

[reality_check]

The reality is when I'm healing a warrior my Stoneskin is just as efficient as cure II. This completely changes my play style as to when I'm healing a paladin and Stoneskin is a complete waste of MP.

That's the problem with you bandwagon crowd. You can't defend something with numbers on paper when the game is so much more dynamic than that.

Here's an actual situation of what happened with a warrior tank and a paladin tank who didn't know the Titan fight that well.
Both paladin and warrior took two bursts by incorrectly placing themselves between bombs and getting hit by both. Both of them ended up at a tiny fraction of their health. The warrior popped last stand and the paladin popped sentinel. Who do you think survived the incoming auto attack? Sure, you could argue that the Paladin could have popped sentinel before the bombs and survived better but we don't play FFXIV on paper.

Also, do you know what are infinitely more useful to a tank than conjurer cross class abilities? Pugilist ones.

Featherfoot/second wind/mantra vs. Cure/protect/stoneskin

[TitusAldin]

paladin popped sentinel.

what you have there is a PLD making a bad decision he should (and most PLD tanks in that situation) have pooped hallowed ground 10s immunity

last stand is a WoW ability there is no such in ffxiv >.>.... i smell troll

The comparison was sentinel vs. last stand. And, like I said, have fun playing your game on paper. Warrior is a great tank and is very capable in all the of the content in this game (I can't speak for turn 5 I haven't done it yet.)

But, go ahead. Do your math and perpetuate the idea that Warriors are awful despite the fact that the development team has told you that you're bad. Your attitude isn't anything new.

there is no point in doing a comparison when the most optimal choice is hallowed ground in that situation.. why purposely gimp the PLD to try and make yur point sound more valid??

FYI "LAST STAND" IS A WOW ABILITY.. that alone makes this discussion moot.

also i never said warrior wasn't viable.

[reality_check]

what you have there is a PLD making a bad decision he should (and most PLD tanks in that situation) have pooped hallowed ground 10s immunity.

The comparison was sentinel vs. last stand. And, like I said, have fun playing your game on paper. Warrior is a great tank and is very capable in all the of the content in this game (I can't speak for turn 5 I haven't done it yet.)

But, go ahead. Do your math and perpetuate the idea that Warriors are awful despite the fact that the development team has told you that you're bad. Your attitude isn't anything new.

[debola]

As a healer, I hate when a warrior joins a party, they have paper thin defense, and can be just plain stressful.

[Naaame]

The comparison was sentinel vs. last stand. And, like I said, have fun playing your game on paper. Warrior is a great tank and is very capable in all the of the content in this game (I can't speak for turn 5 I haven't done it yet.)

But, go ahead. Do your math and perpetuate the idea that Warriors are awful despite the fact that the development team has told you that you're bad. Your attitude isn't anything new.

You're comparing Sentinel to a skill that does not exist. There is no 'Last Stand' on a Warrior, so no one has any idea what you're talking about. Also, no one uses Sentinel after big damage has already hit unless they are braindead.

[KizuBriko]

stuff

The only CON cross class skills I use on my PLD is stoneskin, I know my healers appreciate it when no CD's are up during fights such as ADS turn 2 or Caeduceus Turn 1.

PUG cross class actions are pretty bad w/o the buffs you get from PUG main. Mantra's 5% even stacked w/ Convalescence is still less then a PLD's enhanced Conv. Featherfoot is moot, any mob that is going to miss you w/ FF up is also going to be blindable by a PLDs flash. Second Wind when it lands a crit w/ berserk up is great... otherwise that 500-600 hp you net isnt really worth a whole lot... considering a PLD can cast stoneskin and negate more dmg, and its recast time is instant.

Now I love my WAR and I do it as often as possible. Don't be naive though. PLD is far superior to warrior in the current state.

One more thing~ if a WHM times stoneskin on me when my thrill of battle is on... BEST CASE SCENARIO... It will mitigate 1642 damage (9124HP currently on war w/ ToB up) but thats a small window to land and usually wont be popping thrill unless I'm in need of hp... in which case the whm will be tossing cures instead. I fail to see how stoneskin could ever be better then cure 2 for you...