The Artemis Bow.

[Viridiana]

@ Viridiana, if you count invigorate we're TP neutral on single target. . .

Also, bards burn less TP thank Dragoons? Wrong again. . .

No, we're not TP neutral on a single target. As soon as you introduce Straighter Shot procs and make any attempt to keep 100% uptime on DOTs, we start burning through TP fast. And yes, that's with 0 skill speed. The rest of your argument between waiting for full TP as opposed to doing some DPS while refilling basically harkens back to the old "pace yourself" vs "burn it fast" argument. Yes, I'll be performing sub-optimal at 200 TP. Yes, I could wait for full or nearly full to burn again. On the other hand, odds are good that there's something near death I can contribute to killing, even at 200 TP, so why not?

As for the DRG TP thing, I'll freely admit that I don't know much about DRG play at 50, but I will point out that using their improved Invigorate to say that they go through less TP than a BRD is like saying that BLM goes through less MP than a SMN because BLM has Umbral Ice.

[Tenkiei]

So ... lemme get this straight. You want to spread rot to the mDPS? Ok ok, you're cool, I get it, you waited for the rot to pass twice, and you have an ace handle on the waves, and you got your eye to dodge the gravity wells, and you timed the laser.

Sidenote: don't macro your on-GCD abilities.

Lol I don't even use Fracture. In case you were ignorant, Dragoons have a DD+DOT called Phlebotomize that costs 90 TP. For reference, at 50ss a DRG burns 27.6 TP/s - 28.1 TP/s depending on what rotation they're using.

With the same SS, a BRD burns 27.0 TP/s.

-Didn't you just prove my point that it's possible to use repelling shot without dropping effects on the melee? It might only be a very small dps increase, however it's still a dps increase and therefore should be utilized whenever possible.
-What ever implied macroing on the GCD abilities? that's around a flat 20% dps loss to any char even assuming a perfect rotation macro because /wait 2.5 doesn't exist, it would further be useless for any class such as bard that is proc reliant...ZZzzz more bad logic/implications.
-Sadly not being a Drg I couldn't look that up however that's 1 skill, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you don't clip it much.
-ok....+100 TP from invigorate....even if statistically on paper a drg might burn more you're also forgetting that assumes the drg never moves to avoid a mechanic, thereby stopping their rotation, in an actual fight brds burn more than drgs.
-you don't use fracture, and you don't model executes, do you also decide to ignore gravity whenever you feel like flying?

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Despite the claim that bards aren't TP neutral single target with 0 skill speed, I somehow don't run out of TP in a fight, including titan, now it could be that the few seconds he's untargetable, is just enough to tip the scales, but overall I'd say pure single target bards are functionally tp neutral with very low skill speed, however even if the argument is that they're slightly tp negative that would only make the skill speed is detrimental argument stronger, not weaker.

Also in terms of resource limitation it is fair to say that for single target dragoons have functionally infinite TP, similarly to black mages having functionally infinite mana, whereas summoners and monks functionally do NOT have infinite resources. Bard falls somewhere in the middle grey area with TP.

[EasymodeX]

[...]

Sure, it's in excel though. http://www.fileswap.com/dl/MomxPfbQI/

[EasymodeX]

-you don't use fracture, and you don't model executes, do you also decide to ignore gravity whenever you feel like flying?

Err, Fracture's a DPS loss in many / most DRG sequences.

I don't model executes because they're pretty minor and my model's focused on rotation optimization more than anything -- not really a Bard concern, I know.

[Tenkiei]

Err, Fracture's a DPS loss in many / most DRG sequences.

I don't model executes because they're pretty minor and my model's focused on rotation optimization more than anything -- not really a Bard concern, I know.

Yep lets ignore a bard's 4th highest potency skill because it's only active in the last 20% of the fight, sounds perfectly legit it'll have no effect on the accuracy of your numbers at all! Further ignoring fracture because it's situational would be like...ignoring repelling shot for being situational.... just because you can't do it 100% of the time does not mean it is never worth doing.

[EasymodeX]

Let's see ... at 22pps, ME will up BRD total DPS by roughly 10%, applicable during the last 20%. Assuming other DPS are using similar executes, the target will die roughly 1.8% sooner, meaning the Bard nets a total DPS increase of 1.8% by adding ME to the model.

Yeah, not worth it. I'm cool with my stat weight being 1.8% off.

[Viridiana]

Despite the claim that bards aren't TP neutral single target with 0 skill speed, I somehow don't run out of TP in a fight, including titan, now it could be that the few seconds he's untargetable, is just enough to tip the scales, but overall I'd say pure single target bards are functionally tp neutral with very low skill speed, however even if the argument is that they're slightly tp negative that would only make the skill speed is detrimental argument stronger, not weaker.

Also in terms of resource limitation it is fair to say that for single target dragoons have functionally infinite TP, similarly to black mages having functionally infinite mana, whereas summoners and monks functionally do NOT have infinite resources. Bard falls somewhere in the middle grey area with TP.

He's untargetable for roughly 27 seconds through the course of the fight. You're getting more TP from his invuln phases than what a DRG gets from Invigorate. And, again, SS only reaches 0 effect when you completely TP starve. Up until that point, it has a non-zero weight. And even in the worst case, it's still not a negative effect on your total dps.

Yep lets ignore a bard's 4th highest potency skill because it's only active in the last 20% of the fight, sounds perfectly legit it'll have no effect on the accuracy of your numbers at all! Further ignoring fracture because it's situational would be like...ignoring repelling shot for being situational.... just because you can't do it 100% of the time does not mean it is never worth doing.

Well, it's on off-GCD ability only usable in the last 20%. Competing with it for use would be all of our other off-GCD abilities, including all of our buffs. So, with that said, it loses to Raging Strikes, Hawk's Eye, Barrage, Flaming Arrow, and Blood for Blood. I'm too lazy to do math to see if it loses to Internal Release, and if you need Invigorate, it loses to that, too. Now, it does beat Bloodletter, Blunt Arrow, and Repelling Shot, but it's not fair to call it our 4th highest potency skill.

[Misaky]

i feel like the bard class is un-polished.
in cb bard was archer(30)+conjurer(15), and then on release they switched the conjurer for monk, making bard a complete DD.
(making Archer a Top DD cause is the only DD with shared skills from the 3 physical damage dealers... only DD with 2 critic buffs, 2 dmg buffs, and a dex+acuracy buff)

So.. Bard used to have healing skills and also a heal LB.
And don't forget that in the Bard last job Quest we see our teacher using a healing song!(something we somehow never learned)

Just seems that when release came, they decided to suddenly turn Bard into a DD and left some mistakes around.
Low atk relic and Heal LB..

I just wish they would either finish what they started, by either making Bard into a DD, or just transform him into a support but also with heals and heal song.(and dex+mind equips)

[Mugsan]

Not to break up your conversation but I want to ask, do you think the Artemis bow would be better if the Skill Speed was replaced with Crit Chance or do you think the difference it would make is so small it wouldn't matter either way. Because in my mind 1.6% Crit Chance trumps 0.03? Second increase in Skill Speed. I also think that Skill Speed needs to be slightly reworked because you need a metric shit ton of it to make a big and worthwhile difference.

[Viridiana]

Not to break up your conversation but I want to ask, do you think the Artemis bow would be better if the Skill Speed was replaced with Crit Chance or do you think the difference it would make is so small it wouldn't matter either way. Because in my mind 1.6% Crit Chance trumps 0.03? Second increase in Skill Speed. I also think that Skill Speed needs to be slightly reworked because you need a metric shit ton of it to make a big and worthwhile difference.

Certainly, the crit chance would be a better use of the itemization points. And, yes, the difference would be somewhat minor, but at this point the minor changes are the ones that matter, no?