The Artemis Bow.

[EasymodeX]

EasymodeX, please stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

My ass smells like roses.

So wait a minute, earlier you said ALL off the GCD skills are 11% of our dps, but River of Blood procs is a flat 10%...so Bloodletter coming off CD naturally, Misery's end, Blunt Arrow, Repelling Shot, and Flaming Arrow are all only 1% of our dps? Or is this an example of throwing numbers at a wall to see which ones stick?

Naw, ROB BL is ~11% of ability damage output. Since Bloodletter was the center of discussion, I referenced it alone as "OGCD" since I was typing fast, which was an error I suppose. I typed more slowly for Woodberry because heshe was worth responding to with more detail.

So it went from 11% is OGCDs, to 10% is RoB, to 16% is OGCDs...which number is correct?

11% for ROB BL and ~16% for OGCDs. Specifically, ROB BL, BL, FA. I didn't include ME because it's extremely marginal (note: I do not include Mercy Stroke for other classes, either), or Repelling Shot, because you're kinda dumb if you use it, except maybe on Titan I guess.

then you might be able to show us actual parses.

<insert discussion about the accuracy of DOTs in actual parses>

Btw, how's that Flaming Arrow in your parse, buddy?

if you were to stack a significant amount of it, say 750, what would happen?

What kind of idiot would stack 750 skill speed? You should be banned from the forums for suggesting it :\.

[Viridiana]

One last note on skill speed, lets look at one final thing in terms of it, in the current bard rotation you're more or less TP Neutral, meaning you neither gain, nor LOSE tp with 0 skill speed, if you were to stack a significant amount of it, say 750, what would happen? Quite simply you'd run out of TP, be forced to use foe requiem (lowering the raid's single tar damage most likely), then run out of mana and afk-auto-attack until you regen enough to start using skills (~30s) the MINIMAL potential damage gained by skill speed would be canceled out by the time you're sitting there doing 30% (according to your math) of your normal damage for almost 30s.

Less. We're decidedly less TP neutral, considering that our 3 highest priority attacks all drain TP, and this is exacerbated by every Straighter Shot proc we get. Further, there's no situation in which Foe's Requiem is going to lower the raid's single target damage. Do you even know what your own skills do? Unless you're using it with 0 casters attacking, it's going to be a strict damage increase. I also don't know why you think it takes 30 seconds to get enough TP to start using skills, especially if you're alleging that we're TP-neutral in the absence of SS. Get me about 200 TP, and I can make it last until Invigorate is up, even with skill speed.

I'm not going to try to argue that SS is great. It's clearly our least-valued stat. At the same time, if you're going to accuse someone of making bad arguments, don't do it by making arguments just as bad.

[EasymodeX]

Now's probably a good time to mention that, at the same SS levels, Bards burn less TP/s than DRGs or MNKs.

[Viridiana]

Now's probably a good time to mention that, at the same SS levels, Bards burn less TP/s than DRGs or MNKs.

Granted, but it's a big jump from that to the TP neutrality Tenkei was trying to claim.

[EasymodeX]

Oh, that was so far out there I put it out of my mind.

[Tenkiei]

11% for ROB BL and ~16% for OGCDs. Specifically, ROB BL, BL, FA. I didn't include ME because it's extremely marginal (note: I do not include Mercy Stroke for other classes, either), or Repelling Shot, because you're kinda dumb if you use it, except maybe on Titan I guess.

What kind of idiot would stack 750 skill speed? You should be banned from the forums for suggesting it :\.

You'd be stupid to use an ability that gives free damage and only requires you to take a couple steps towards the boss in between mechanics? Let me rephrase that for you, it would be stupid to NOT use repelling shot, with the exception of when you know you need it as an escape/defensive cd. Fights in this game are scripted, bosses use spells in a certain order with windows in between there's plenty of time to weave repelling in if you know the fights.

Also, I said 750 Skill speed because that's when it starts making a very noticeable difference in rotations, the fact of the matter is that the ~150 skill speed you might get off gear is inconsequential, think about it like haste from WoW (bad analogy since haste in WoW is infinitely more useful), when does it help you? At plateaus, .01 less GCD is NOT a Plateau, a Plateau is something like "ability to insert 1 more GCD skill in between X cooldown, or ability to insert an additional GCD between DoT refreshes." Think about it, Det effects 100% of our damage, Crit effects 100% of our damage, Skill Speed... does not...


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@ Viridiana, if you count invigorate we're TP neutral on single target. Also that was a copy/paste error on my part with the Foe Requiem I apologize, what I was trying to say is "Use Army's Paeon Dropping Foe Requiem" but I accidently went over part of that line while copy/pasting my message to get past the stupid 1k char limit. Think about it as all mana spent on AP is BETTER spent on FR. As for 30s, it's true that you can get around 200 TP and start using skills again, but if we are working under the assumption that because of your skill speed you drain TP faster than you recover it via Invig/natural regen, if you do not wait for your TP bar to completely refill you will find yourself back in the "0 tp" situation far faster (Especially if your DoTs have fallen off and you have to spend 160TP reapplying them). Essentially yes you could start using skills earlier if you want to run out of TP faster than before, but you'll most likely have to wait for your TP bar to completely fill before you are able to begin using skills/draining tp to begin the cycle again. Again all of this assumes minimal to no skill speed, the faster your GCD gets the faster you burn TP. Also keep in mind that Army's Paeon lowers your damage by 20% which further hurts the skill speed argument.

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Also, bards burn less TP thank Dragoons? Wrong again. I've never seen a dragoon go through TP as fast as my bard, because their rotation is based on consistent use of CHEAPER skills. Bard has Heavy Shot (60), Straight Shot (70), and DoTs (80/piece) Most of the commonly used Dragoon skills are 60 (Vorpal/Full/Chaos/Disem), or 70 (True/Impulse/Heavy) The only Drg commonly used skill which is 80 off the top of my head is fracture, and as I remember fracture is not only refreshed less often than bard DoTs, but not clipped/reapplied as much either. Finally Dragoons get additional TP regen from their invigorate over both monks and bards. Most of your assumptions about bard skill use, bard tp consumption, etc are based off a dps model which reflects a very poor level of play on the bard's part. I assure you even on as few as 2 targets, with invigorate a bard will run themselves completely out of TP assuming both targets live long enough, can the same be said of Dragoon?

[Woodberry]

I thought being able to move and use all of BRD's abilities made up for any downsides they have had or ever will have. xD

Not all bard abilities can be used while moving. Songs have a cast time. I know you are thinking, "big whoop" but just clarifying for accuracy.

[EasymodeX]

You'd be stupid to use an ability that gives free damage and only requires you to take a couple steps towards the boss in between mechanics?

So ... lemme get this straight. You want to spread rot to the mDPS? Ok ok, you're cool, I get it, you waited for the rot to pass twice, and you have an ace handle on the waves, and you got your eye to dodge the gravity wells, and you timed the laser.

Go for that 0.05% damage increase bro. We're all cheering for you.

Also, I said 750 Skill speed because that's when it starts making a very noticeable difference in rotations, the fact of the matter is that the ~150 skill speed you might get off gear is inconsequential,

Actually, I noticed a pretty big difference between low SS and 100 SS on my Dragoon. Must be a Bard thing. Sidenote: don't macro your on-GCD abilities.

Think about it, Det effects 100% of our damage, Crit effects 100% of our damage, Skill Speed... does not...

Skill speed affects a good fraction. The fact that it isn't great is why it results in a poor stat weight. But that stat weight is not 0.

I've never seen a dragoon go through TP as fast as my bard, because their rotation is based on consistent use of CHEAPER skills. Bard has Heavy Shot (60), Straight Shot (70), and DoTs (80/piece) Most of the commonly used Dragoon skills are 60 (Vorpal/Full/Chaos/Disem), or 70 (True/Impulse/Heavy) The only Drg commonly used skill which is 80 off the top of my head is fracture,

Lol I don't even use Fracture. In case you were ignorant, Dragoons have a DD+DOT called Phlebotomize that costs 90 TP. For reference, at 50ss a DRG burns 27.6 TP/s - 28.1 TP/s depending on what rotation they're using.

With the same SS, a BRD burns 27.0 TP/s.

a bard will run themselves completely out of TP assuming both targets live long enough, can the same be said of Dragoon?

Sure, if they both live long enough.

[Woodberry]

Yeah, I have autoattacks in a separate part of my model (they are included for stat weight calculations, but not when I did a quick/separate "what potency% of attacks were HS" calculation). I have, as a % of ability damage, dots (39%), SS/HS (47%), OGCDs (22%). Reducing those #s by a 29% AA contribution results in: dots (28%), SS/HS (34%), OGCDs (16%) (includes full flaming arrow).

But a 4x% number is more fun to wave around in a facetious post.

So your modeling matches up similarly to my parses. I know you have weighted the stats, mind sharing a link? Realistically there is not much customization in stats, but I'd like to maximize what little control over them we have.

[Bardo]

Just to interject a little tidbit that seems to be going overlooked:
Remember that endgame Bards should be keeping up Rain of Death (even on single target), which increases TP use by a decent amount (200TP every ~20 seconds) and is essentially a third DoT to keep track of.