SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[Kevee]

This whole thing is not about the Final Fantasy Summoner archetype being changed slightly, but the fact that this iteration of Summoner does not fit that archetype for many.

Last I heard, FFXIV is a Final Fantasy game and can develop it's own archetype.

If you don't think so, what is the Summoner archetype?

Also, there is no over-arching theme(Besides creature that is "summoned" does things). Just some people say there is, when really they just have a bias towards certain Final Fantasies.


It's not a thematic problem. They are introduced in the lore as such. It wasn't a thematic problem in X, from the shift of EVERYTHING prior. Both from altering your party, to directly commanding them, to them ultimately being useless. The overall theme changed with X.

-Pet isn't insignificant feeling. Simply because people don't look at the numbers, that doesn't mean they are insignificant.
-Totally forgettable? For the lore that is established in XIV, and the fact we don't summon the actual primals, I like the designs. They are sleek, and pretty cool looking. People are saying, "Man, why can't we summon something like Garuda?" -- Well, it wouldn't make sense to summon something that looks like it when we just use an essence of power. Image can reflect power. For summoning an essence, the Egi's do a great job of getting the theme of the primals.

-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."

Again, you are putting your bias into your analysis.

[Hawklaser]

Last I heard, FFXIV is a Final Fantasy game and can develop it's own archetype.

If you don't think so, what is the Summoner archetype?

Also, there is no over-arching theme(Besides creature that is "summoned" does things). Just some people say there is, when really they just have a bias towards certain Final Fantasies.

The over-arching theme for a Final Fantasy Summoner has every thing to do with those Summons and how they feel. If that feel is not there, the job is not really matching the expectations people have for Summoner, hence why there is this thread.

It's not a thematic problem. They are introduced in the lore as such. It wasn't a thematic problem in X, from the shift of EVERYTHING prior. Both from altering your party, to directly commanding them, to them ultimately being useless. The overall theme changed with X.

There are no issues with the lore they used for XIV's summoner, as it pretty much follows the FF Summoner Archtype for lore. Which is tied to having to subdue or display your power to the entity you want to summon, and only ones I can think off-hand that did not have this happen for stronger summons is FF7 and FF9, but that did not affect their over all thematic feel. The issue has to do entirely with the power balance between the Egi and the Summoner being out of whack for a FF Summoner. I fully understand why they went the route they did with it, but they should not have called it Summoner. For example, if they had called it Evoker, which is a name they have used before for weaker Summoners in a game with full Summoners, no problem would exist.

-Pet isn't insignificant feeling. Simply because people don't look at the numbers, that doesn't mean they are insignificant.
-Totally forgettable? For the lore that is established in XIV, and the fact we don't summon the actual primals, I like the designs. They are sleek, and pretty cool looking. People are saying, "Man, why can't we summon something like Garuda?" -- Well, it wouldn't make sense to summon something that looks like it when we just use an essence of power. Image can reflect power. For summoning an essence, the Egi's do a great job of getting the theme of the primals.

I know the damage put out from them is not insignificant, they feel insignificant because all they feel like is a DoT with a HP bar as its limit instead of a duration. The forgettable part has nothing to do with their looks, but from how they play. In the long run, the Egi's are not really going to leave a lasting impression on people outside of them being walking DoTs.

-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."

Which is something that is expected of summons. Either a nice burst damage ability, or a strong utility effect. Also never said wanted it pet based, even XI's Summoner, which is the closest to a pet based Summoner, still fit the expectations of a Summoner. They were limited in duration outside of HP, the power balance between the Summoner and Summon was right, and their signature abilities fit the expected feel even if could only rarely use them. We don't want XI's Summoner because while it felt like a Summoner it was generally seen as useful by the general player base for its 2-hour ability only, or as a healer in a pinch. It was very rare for people to want a Summoner unless they felt they needed the incredible burst potential of the job. Or in the later years, for Perfect Defense.

[Kevee]

The over-arching theme for a Final Fantasy Summoner has every thing to do with those Summons and how they feel. If that feel is not there, the job is not really matching the expectations people have for Summoner, hence why there is this thread.

Okay, and how do summons feel?

There are no issues with the lore they used for XIV's summoner, as it pretty much follows the FF Summoner Archtype for lore. Which is tied to having to subdue or display your power to the entity you want to summon, and only ones I can think off-hand that did not have this happen for stronger summons is FF7 and FF9, but that did not affect their over all thematic feel. The issue has to do entirely with the power balance between the Egi and the Summoner being out of whack for a FF Summoner. I fully understand why they went the route they did with it, but they should not have called it Summoner. For example, if they had called it Evoker, which is a name they have used before for weaker Summoners in a game with full Summoners, no problem would exist.

No, there can't be this issue, because Summons have always been weak, or not the optimal thing, for the "Summoners" to do. FFXI is different, yeah. The pets did everything, literally. The summoner's didn't have another option, but they were weak in comparison to everyone else.

I know the damage put out from them is not insignificant, they feel insignificant because all they feel like is a DoT with a HP bar as its limit instead of a duration. The forgettable part has nothing to do with their looks, but from how they play. In the long run, the Egi's are not really going to leave a lasting impression on people outside of them being walking DoTs.

And why is that a problem? I mean, doing a significant portion of your damage, modifying/altering your rotation, and the necessity to micro-manage it in some fights..What else do you want? Not to mention micro-managing the AoE ability, too, because you should have your pet on Obey.

Which is something that is expected of summons. Either a nice burst damage ability, or a strong utility effect. Also never said wanted it pet based, even XI's Summoner, which is the closest to a pet based Summoner, still fit the expectations of a Summoner. They were limited in duration outside of HP, the power balance between the Summoner and Summon was right, and their signature abilities fit the expected feel even if could only rarely use them. We don't want XI's Summoner because while it felt like a Summoner it was generally seen as useful by the general player base for its 2-hour ability only, or as a healer in a pinch. It was very rare for people to want a Summoner unless they felt they needed the incredible burst potential of the job. Or in the later years, for Perfect Defense.

-Burst = Enkindle
-Utility = Contagion/Stun

They were also weak. I don't care if I "feel" like A summoner(even though I do in XIV), if I'm weak in comparison to everyone else. You keep talking about the "feel." What "feel?" Certainly that has changed from pre-X to post-X, right?

[Hawklaser]

Okay, and how do summons feel?

Before I try and explain this, have to say this could be very difficult for you to understand because you seem to look at each action from a purely min/max perspective, that or you are just playing devil's advocate.


First lets go with a checklist the big things that summons over the years have had in common for the thematic side. Good appearances(animation/looks), strong iconic moves, the entity is as strong or stronger than the character, borrow their power for a limited time, and often times have to earn their use. (For those not familiar, appearances can be extremely subjective, though usually the FF summons are a step above most of the other spells/actions/monsters in the game.)

Now lets go down that list for XIV's Egi's. For appearances they do look rather well, however their animations for their attacks are not very awe inspiring, and that is likely due to keeping the game playable for people when large numbers of summoners are in the area. They really do not have the strong iconic moves(damage or utility) and having to stack multiple buffs to achieve a strong attack does not count, even more so when BLM's fire 3 which is gotten much earlier is spammable and is equal to or stronger than a non-buffed enkindle. For the power balance, the controlled Egi's I am pretty sure are no where close to half as strong as the player as I can pull hate off of all but my Topaz Carby/Titan without really trying. The Egi's are not really temporary at all, disposable, but not temporary. We already went of the earning their use earlier so not going over that again. So for me that is only 1.5 out of the 5 big things I expect in a Final Fantasy Summon, and for them to feel right it usually takes 3.5+ of those for me.

No, there can't be this issue, because Summons have always been weak, or not the optimal thing, for the "Summoners" to do. FFXI is different, yeah. The pets did everything, literally. The summoner's didn't have another option, but they were weak in comparison to everyone else.

There can be this issue of them being thematically wrong, and for those that only look at thing from a min/max perspective, as you seem to do, they very rarely see the thematic side of things. Which is the entire issue with XIV's Summoner, it does not fit the Final Fantasy Summoner theme.

And why is that a problem? I mean, doing a significant portion of your damage, modifying/altering your rotation, and the necessity to micro-manage it in some fights..What else do you want? Not to mention micro-managing the AoE ability, too, because you should have your pet on Obey.

The best way I can explain this one to you, involves visible and invisible power. To best explain this, I am going to use Cure and Regen to illustrate. Cure is a good example of a visible heal, as a player you very clearly know how much of an effect a single cure has. Regen is a good example of an invisible heal, while strong, lots of people over look it because they have no reliable way to quantify how effective it is on the fly, either need a parser of some sort or have to math it out. And on the damage side, DoTs are mostly invisible power. And on the whole always needing to have pet on obey, that is pretty much only because of a need to control one ability on the pet, outside of CC situations.

-Burst = Enkindle
-Utility = Contagion/Stun

They were also weak. I don't care if I "feel" like A summoner(even though I do in XIV), if I'm weak in comparison to everyone else. You keep talking about the "feel." What "feel?" Certainly that has changed from pre-X to post-X, right?

On Enkindle being a burst ability, that does not really fly if always have to stack buffs just for it to be worth using due to its long cooldown. Also if you want your burst on Summoner, Fester is going to be your go to burst.

Contagion is not really a utility spell, its another of those invisible power nukes. The stuns are very marginal utility, as most times when would use it there are better stuns available in a group, not to mention invoking diminishing returns on said better stuns. Which makes the stun mostly a solo use skill, and even then it is not needed.

The whole not caring if you feel like a summoner or not if its weaker than everything else is part of why you are not getting this. If you only consider the thematic of something when it is not weaker than everything else, means it is something that is only an after thought.

Also the feel of a Summoner has not changed at all pre-X and post-X. The only place where it has been noticeably different to me, is XIV.