Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

[Kaalan]

WAR with dungeon drops and no crafted gear is not really going to get your foot in the door with coil...

How about you answer my question from last page instead of saying stuff like that ?
Unless you're investing millions and millions and millions to meld and over meld with grade IV, I hardly see how you would be able to stack crit/str and have enough vit/acc (and parry ?) to be able to survive in coil.

[Skies]

Hey, at the very least instead of crying like a baby Hiir's trying to figure out what works, while you other guys are just doing a very bad job at crying until what you want happens.
You're not helping the devs the least bit either, if you want changes to WAR you gotta show how it needs those changes, even if Hiir's efforts are utterly useless in the end and not even all the crazy ideas and effort will get WAR to stack up to what you want, they will at the very least show the devs where they problems lie.
(and to note you want WAR to be better than PLD, not equal. And no, a higher skill requirement is in no way related to a better output, noob tubes are good for games, everyone needs them as they grow, and PLD is the tanking noob tube)

[Onisake]

snip

There's something fundamentally wrong when people white knight. Most of these people have no idea what 'good design' really means. or even where to begin at testing a design.

As with most things, there is not one thing wrong with WAR. it is a plethora of things that all add p. we can bring them up one at a time and argue them to death, but being 2% lower here, 1% lower there, etc. eventually all adds up to us being 15% less effective overall.

1) Yoshi has said to 'do more research' but this is a problem in and of itself. The job is not intuitive. we've been theory crafting for nearly a month now. If we haven't found it, it's not likely we will. if the solution is really to mix-and-match tank/DD gear to tank this is a design problem. no-one in their right mind would go 'oh, I want to tank. Better put on this scale mail that has no defense and a ton of STR'

2) Scaling is also an issue. Paladin scales with incoming damage for mitigation. it has no self heals. it has no way to recover itself. its only form of mitigation is to reduce incoming damage. this means the bigger the mob, the more effective you become. Warriors mitigation scales with damage. this means the smaller the mob, the more effective you become. This makes it appear that war should be an OT and pld should be a MT

3) Warrior has a lack of abilities to make it an effective OT. the design and interpretation point that war should be OT. we don't have an 'on the fly' AoE enmity generator that PLD does. all of our AoE abilities take setup time. we need all mobs in front of us for Overpower. we need wrath for steel cyclone. this means our AoE abilities are situational. this means our ability to off tank is situational. this indicates that War should be a MT afterall, not an OT. so now we have conflicting data.

4) War generates more Single target enmity. This also indicates that war should be an off tank. when killing adds, you want as much burst as possible. this means you need bigger enmity spikes to help control them. this indicates that war should be an OT again.

5) It is believed that WAR should do more damage than PLD when tanking. we make up for our lack of mitigation by killing things faster. Unfortunately, when trying, WAR doesn't do more damage than pld. We have posts here that do the math. but the reality is this: a lot of your damage comes from Auto Attacks. PLD has an ability that improves their auto attack potency by 50. this is not a small amount. WAR has an ability that further enhances this. so to maximize damage output, you need war as a MT, and pld as an OT so they can use shield oath. AGAIN indicating that war should be MT.

Some might argue that 'this just means that WAR can do both. l2p' Yeah. WAR should be able to do both. just as well as pld. the problem is it can't. we lack the tools to do either one as effectively as the other tank class.

These are only a few of the things wrong with WAR atm. we haven't even touched the risk/reward, combo priority, party synergy, or the fact it's apparently meant to be a 'show off' class. Pro-tip: no-one likes a show off.

If you still think war is "Fine as is" then you lack the insight to see the bigger picture.

[HiirNoivl]

WAR is a horrible offtank.



When I offtank WAR I'm so awkward. I want to DD... but I can't DD without taking hate. When I take hate, I can't give it back.

It pisses off the MT so much and completely screw things over.

When I'm fighting multiple adds my DPS actually goes down because I'm using AoEs and Flash (which does no damage) while trying to DPS single target and kill it before they kill me. (You can't AoE and self heal. You can't AoE and spike damage. WAR is actually pretty weak for many adds. You have to work hard.)

WAR has been a superiour MT for single target since Beta 3 when I used to run in to PLDs tanking Cancer and take hate in a single combo using Unchained. All the provokes in the world couldn't give it back. To this day, when a PLD says he wants to MT, I just groan. Please go back on stun duty so I can turn a 15 min fight into a 10 minute one.

Now I'm a MT for single target that actually does damage on par with a Dragoon with a relic spear. And I have no troubles staying up.

Before I had issues with WAR but I'm working those out. Before I couldn't heal enough on IB... then I couldn't do enough damage... but in one fell swoop I feel like I've begun to solve both those problems.

The only reason it took people a month to figure these things out is because they don't think outside the box and it takes time to see sometimes what's right in front of you. And VIT stacking worked for a while. I got past Titan on a VIT stacked WAR, but the damage kept getting greater while my DPS and Self heals kept getting smaller. I had reached a peak with Vit Stacking WEEKS ago.

I thought that if I just added more STR it would work. And it did work, but not enough. I then tried to change combos to max my DPS and tried to max Self heals. And that worked, but not enough. I was still sometimes hitting Inner Beast for not enough... But I kept seeing these golden glimpses of Inner Beasts that hit close to 3k and I kept tried to get it up there. Come on 3k!

But I never made it.

So I had to go back again... Okay, well, maybe if I try to use Skill speed and double my Inner Beast... and while that worked sometimes, under the randomized testing of Duty Finder that fizzled too. And I could only do it with Berserk up for max healing not enough.

But I didn't give up and I'm not giving up until I'm figuring out WHAT exactly are they doing. I wish they would just out and tell me but what's the fun of that? I guess in a few months someone will come up with a more "Numbers-and-math" version of my conclusions.

Now with Crit Rate I'm seeing much higher numbers in DPS, I actually do not see a drop in DPS when I hold WRATH V because now that my Crit Rate is already buffed, Wrath V helps all the more! Meaning that I'm DPS'ing more and I'm getting healed for 15% more.

I mean it's great. I can use Unchained and then Infuriate and then Internal Release... omg or even Berserk... combined with Fracture.

Hmm Hm... Yes, I need to tank Titan again. Need a competant party to survive to heart Phase... Could I hit 190 DPS on the heart?

Oh rapture. ^__^

[Kaalan]

Oh come on.
I want to take you serioursly, I really do.
But this last post. wow. Do you even think before writing this shit down ?

[Hitokirinomad]

Hiir, you're still missing the point. If your entire theory is 100% accurate warriors are STILL not balanced due to their itemization taking them in a direction completely at odds with the normal tiered gear progression. If the answer to warriors is 'build crit rate, get rid of wrath regularly', then endgame warrior plate that you obtain with the SAME TOKENS AS EVERYONE ELSE should prioritize Str > Crit > Vit > Skillspeed, because having a large health pool is not the mitigation, it's being able to refill that health pool, which requires 1) big crits, and 2) lots of crits. If Philosophy > Mythology > Allagan gear does not do this, then the issue is broken itemization if your conjecture is correct. Materia melds should not be required to get to these levels of crit, unless all other classes require materia melds for their SECONDARY stat to be balanced.


The increased difficulty in warrior tanking versus paladin tanking should be (in a decent design) that the warrior requires a more active use of a toolset to achieve similar results (staying alive + holding hate + maximizing personal dps). As it is, even you are not saying a warrior can achieve the same results as an equally geared and skilled paladin, you are saying a massively overgeared warrior with more skill, can *almost* equal a paladin at the high edge of content.

[HiirNoivl]

Hiir, you're still missing the point. If your entire theory is 100% accurate warriors are STILL not balanced due to their itemization taking them in a direction completely at odds with the normal tiered gear progression. If the answer to warriors is 'build crit rate, get rid of wrath regularly', then endgame warrior plate that you obtain with the SAME TOKENS AS EVERYONE ELSE should prioritize Str > Crit > Vit > Skillspeed, because having a large health pool is not the mitigation, it's being able to refill that health pool, which requires 1) big crits, and 2) lots of crits. If Philosophy > Mythology > Allagan gear does not do this, then the issue is broken itemization if your conjecture is correct. Materia melds should not be required to get to these levels of crit, unless all other classes require materia melds for their SECONDARY stat to be balanced.


The increased difficulty in warrior tanking versus paladin tanking should be (in a decent design) that the warrior requires a more active use of a toolset to achieve similar results (staying alive + holding hate + maximizing personal dps). As it is, even you are not saying a warrior can achieve the same results and an equally geared and skilled paladin, you are saying a massively overgeared warrior with more skill, can *almost* equal a paladin at the high edge of content.

Except I'm not massively Overgeared (Except my Relic) I'm still in level 70 gear.

If you think that getting Darksteel melds is too difficult then I really feel for you in later aspects of the game when crafting recipes drop from dungeons instead of actual gear. lol

I think that my experiences in 1.0 with sheer frustrating difficulty calloused my tolerance for the pain and suffering that playing WAR in 2.0 might bring. And perhaps Yoshi P is the same way.

If you're coming from another game where you just grab gear from dungeons or grab gear from tokens put it on and go, then I suppose that this is quite a shock for you. But yeah, Yoshi wants crafting to remain relevant. The best gear in the game is High Quality Crafted, even for mage jobs.

And you can get good gear for WAR using tokens. Most of the gear I wear currently is Darklight. With the exception of the bigger pieces and some melds I made.

It has taken some time for WARs to be ready and that's okay. To be honest, though, it really hasn't taken that much time. And the couple mil I spent testing and stuff is really NOTHING compared to the gil and the hours I had to spend to get my Thyrus in 1.0.

EDIT: I should say that the best gear in the game is high quality crafted with the exception of Allagan and AF2... but really I am never getting rid of my Darksteel until the next crafting recipes (Level 80 crafting???) is released.

[Ketsufuma]

Oh come on.
I want to take you serioursly, I really do.
But this last post. wow. Do you even think before writing this shit down ?

Stop bashing a positive Warrior? Im having no issues as he says. I feel i am superior to PLD When i tank as well. Just because you dont like the job and do horrible at it means the rest of us proper warriors have to suffer?

[Duelle]

AF2 gear for both, except possibly PLD's boots, are the best in the game and those sets can't be shared. With just AF2 gear, from what I've checked, WAR gets more determination and skill speed; whereas PLD gets higher crit rate and parry.

This brings up other questions. Mainly how worthwhile stacking Skill Speed would be. I've mentioned one potential help to WAR being increasing frequency of attacks, but I figure it would require an obscene amount of Skill Speed to reduce the GCD to a point where you could spam attacks to heal yourself to counteract damage (not taking unlucky crits and heavy auto-attacks into account). There's also TP regeneration to keep in mind, as lower GCDs means you're using TP faster than it replenishes (though I guess all that does is make you extremely dependent on bards).

[pepero]

Stop bashing a positive Warrior? Im having no issues as he says. I feel i am superior to PLD When i tank as well. Just because you dont like the job and do horrible at it means the rest of us proper warriors have to suffer?

This post is laced with "all I've done are AK runs and CM runs.", you truly think you are superior? How about actually hitting content that shows the huge differences between PLD and WAR aka Titan HM.