Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

[Kitru]

Another thing that really hasn't been talked about much... resource use and resource pools (TP mainly in this case) .

Which class has the easier resource construct depends upon how you play, but resource pools are large enough that TP costs only matter in extreme circumstances (the only common one of which is brought up later). The rotation that they use (using the one from my previous post) costs 650 ((70+60+60) * 3 + 80) over 10 GCDs, or 65 TP/GCD. The WAR rotation is slightly more expensive at 860 ((70 + 60 + 60) * 2 + (70+60+70) * 2 + 80)) over 13 GCDs, or 66.15 TP/GCD. Base resource gain is 60 TP every 3 seconds or 50 TP/GCD. As such, the net loss of a PLD is 15 TP/GCD (~63.33 GCDs before you reach 50 TP and are forced to have an open GCD) whereas a WAR has 16.15 TP/GCD (58.82 GCDs until empty GCD). The difference isn't major, but it's present. Of course, if you factor in Berserk, where a PLD loses 2 GCDs every 36, cost goes down to 62.48 TP/GCD and the net loss becomes 12.48 (76.12 GCDs before out). Honestly, most fights have some degree of downtime so that you're not attacking constantly. It doesn't really take all that much to allow a tank to have infinite resources for all intents and purposes.

When you bring in AoE threat, the difference becomes rather starl. Overpower costs 130 TP/GCD, which is a net loss of *80* TP/GCD whereas Flash is effectively free but limited to 7 chain casts before you run out (every 22 seconds you get MP equal to an additional Flash; 2% per 3 seconds; 1474 max mp with Flash at a cost of 212). Flash is also a net gain of 50 TP every time you use it. If you string Flash into your rotation, you can have a PLD that, quite literally, never runs out of resources. Each use of Overpower, on the other hand, is, effectively, 6.4 GCDs of TP consumption right off the bat. Overpower is expensive as *hell*.

It's for this reason, the difference between Flash and Overpower's relative costs, that it's really hard to properly gauge the AoE effectiveness of either class. WAR gets better burst AoE threat, but it comes at a steep cost. PLD has better *consistent* AoE threat, which also has a larger area and is easier to use because it's a PbAoE rather than a targeted cone, that is, effectively, free. If there is a long period of time between add packs, WAR gets to shine. If there *isn't* or the packs is more spread out, PLD wins by a mile.

[dandelions]

large post in reply

I had edited my post quite a bit, my point was just to convey TP constraints hurt Warriors far more than Paladins due to part of the Warrior mitigation coming from "offense" and constant use of TP to build Wrath for things like Inner Beast. I haven't been to Coil, so I don't know general timers on the fights, but I've reached low TP in fights outside Coil (and without using Overpower).

Having a Bard use the TP song seems like a waste when both melee DPS and bard have access to the Dragoon's Invogorate (which seems to be fine for sustaining constant TP use on my bard).


Was just bringing up another point (more minor given it is situation dependent on long fights) to add to the Warrior inferiority vs. Paladin list in hopes the devs planning changes in the future.

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Also, I'd include WAR's stun for completeness' sake in this equation. It'll give you 50/(30/2.5) = 4.17 extra dps per gcd and it's off the gcd, just as silence and spirit are.

You never use the Stun unless it is your turn to interrupt something (due to Stun DR build up). Using this ability outside of set perimeters on most bosses will essentially wipe the raid or at the very minumum cause far more trouble than 50 potency would ever be worth.

TLDR: It's not a free off GCD 50 potency 30 second CD attack; using it like so would get you kicked from any raid group.

[Tronic]

It's rare I would ever use the Stun on DPS unless it was my turn to interrupt something. Using this ability outside of set perimeters on most bosses will wipe the raid.

Unless it's a boss that has a mechanic that needs stunning (ex: Ifrit's eruptions), you are free to stun to your heart's content. Also note that this is an optimal theoretical setup, and given the logic you propose one could argue a paladin would hold on to spirits within if the boss had a mechanic that needed silencing, or would never *always* be at 100% health to get the most out of spirits within. So if you give one the benefit of perfect playing conditions to do the calculations you need to give the other side the same benefit to be coherent.

That being said, when I'm not in fights where stun is needed for interruption purposes, i'll use stun liberally to bump my dps, and I haven't had problems doing this.

[Kitru]

TLDR: It's not a free off GCD 50 potency 30 second CD attack; using it like so would get you kicked from any raid group.

On top of that, even if you *do* use it on CD, it adds a whopping 4.167 potency per GCD. Combined with Vengeance (6.25 pot/GCD), that's ~11 potency total from abilities I chose to ignore for previously given reasons. It gives a slight advantage, but it's still well withing the realms of "barely better", especially when you perform the DPS dilution in raid damage scenarios as I said before. A 10% increase in DPS from a tank is a laughable contribution to total DPS.