Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

[maneatinglizard]

The exaggerated Warrior hate and complaining is really annoying.

[Pellegri]

Killed titan several times with a warrior tank in the group, got to turn 4 with a warrior/paladin tanking......wait wut, why is it warriors are bad again? Definitely seem to take more dmg than paladins but unless the healers are literally carrying our warrior I'm hardly able to see why it is they're so terrible when we are only a single turn behind guilds that are higher on progression. If i'm missing something then please show me what it is, because unless turn 4 is so drastically different then hey we will probably end up doing it with that same warrior. Don't try and tell me "oh but they can't tank juggernauts", well guess that's a paladins job then while the warrior is on add duty because last I checked you need both a juggernaut tank and an add tank, can't beat the fight without an add tank anyway so he would hardly be getting carried by the rest of the group.

[Wahzam]

Warriros can Tank 1 juggernaut or a knight and soldier just fine.

Its when the warrior has to tank 2 juggernauts or 2 sets of knight and soldiers that there becomes a problem, a problem that's easily overcome as a paladin.

If you keep the warrior as an Off-tank, then yeah Turn 4 can be done by a warrior but its 50-100 times easier with a paladin.

Twintania is also easier with a paladin, since they can cycle through their mitigation cooldowns to eat death sentences with.

The point is though why bring a warrior who's a bigger burden on healers then the paladin?

[Pellegri]

The point is though why bring a warrior who's a bigger burden on healers then the paladin?

Guess it's one of those proving that it can be done and someone not wanting to feel forced to switch classes type of things. I've seen too many videos or posts from people that think the only way to do something is with a cookie cutter group and the moment the setup changes things get too hard to handle. Kinda like why bring less than 2-3 bards when there's no negative to bringing that many even though from what I've personally seen atleast skilled summoners can blow away them even if they don't have the toolkit bards do. It will remain to be seen how hard turn 4 is for my group since other than derping around we haven't given it a real shot but nothing seemed like it would prove to be too much just because we have a warrior in the group.

[Eylev]

No flames but this is how i feel.. Paladin will be always the MT for various of dungeons. And when paladin is down, the warrior will be the sub tank. I feel that WAR is on 50/50 on being a tank & dps where PLD is fully focusing on tanking.

I feel that for WAR do fine with normal 4man run dungeons but when come to any 8man dungeons, it will be advisable to have 1 MT and ST as when things go haywire, we at least got 1 tank to hold off any bosses/mobs..

[Kitru]

I feel that WAR is on 50/50 on being a tank & dps where PLD is fully focusing on tanking.

Except that WAR doesn't do more damage than PLD. It's a myth that's been propagated by people that don't know what they're talking about.

[Eylev]

Except that WAR doesn't do more damage than PLD. It's a myth that's been propagated by people that don't know what they're talking about.

By judging on different base class's skills from MRD and GLA i think WAR definitely have more DPS than a PLD. Also, why SE will want to have a warrior welding a 2hand weapon have lesser damage than a paladin who is welding a 1hand sword and a shield?

[Ruminate]

By judging on different base class's skills from MRD and GLA i think WAR definitely have more DPS than a PLD. Also, why SE will want to have a warrior welding a 2hand weapon have lesser damage than a paladin who is welding a 1hand sword and a shield?

PLDs were given huge buffs to their single-target damage between beta phases because the devs want them to be on par. The WAR was given buffs to their survivability between beta phases, too, for the same reasons. Its just that the survivability buffs to the WAR wasn't good enough.

[Kitru]

By judging on different base class's skills from MRD and GLA i think WAR definitely have more DPS than a PLD.

And what exactly are you looking at? Maim? Berserk? Fracture? If that's all, you're ignoring a crapload.

Yes, early on, MAR is going to have higher damage than a GLA, but that's only because of Maim. As soon as you hit PLD, that advantage instantly vanishes: Sword Oath adds a *lot* of additional damage and Defiance applies a bigger damage penalty than Sword Oath. Furthermore, Fracture is a *tiny* increase in end DPS for a WAR while not really providing a real advantage in enmity generation. Berserk also happens to add only slightly more than half as much damage as Fight or Flight, thanks to the much shorter duration and Pacification effect. PLD also gets a lot of additional damage per GCD from Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn that just so happen to be off GCD: if they're used properly, they'll provide roughly 16% of total damage output. Ignoring those 2 is ignoring a *crapton* of damage output.

As I said before, WAR doesn't do more damage than a PLD. It's a myth propagated by people that don't know what they're talking about. You just proved that.

[Kitru]

Based on what we know and what they're saying, it sounds like another case of the Warrior class scaling better with equipment and thus needing copious amounts of gear before they come good.

I really want someone to point out how WAR could *possibly* be a class that scales with gear better than a PLD. DMG is *rapidly* outpaced by incoming damage as a tank, especially at the end game where half of your gear no longer has Strength on it and barely anything has Determination. Even then, WAR and PLD use the same exact gear so there would have to be some reason that WAR somehow gets more out of its gear than PLD does, which makes no sense as far as I can see because there's nothing that WAR get that is more gear dependent than what a PLD gets beyond the self heals which are entirely damage dependent. There isn't even anything like a flat increase to a percentage based gear dependent mitigation mechanism that would actually behave as such.

I keep seeing people saying that, somehow, WAR will be a class that blooms late when it has awesome gear but, if you've got even the *slightly* clue about the mechanics/math, it makes no sense whatsoever to claim such. The only reason that people have to make that claim is that they believe that SE is somehow incapable of error and that its current performance is intended rather than in error. It's a delusion that, for some reason, SE is absolutely perfect. WAR isn't going to magically get better because they planned it that well. The only way WAR is going to get better is if the devs fix the numbers.

Every time I see someone say that WAR is going to get better than PLD when we get better gear, I have to facepalm. Until I actually see some math or analysis that actually supports the claim (everything I've done indicates that it's actually going to scale *worse* with gear because, as stated before, incoming damage scales faster than outgoing damage), I will continue to do so. Considering the evidence we've got, it makes *absolutely no sense*.