The enmity production of Regen spells

[Steeled]

Edit: This thread is not saying that the spell generates too much enmity. It's saying that the enmity dynamics of the spell screw up more complicated pulls.

As fun as the combat is in this game, this combat is more dependent on latency than any other combat I've seen, in so many ways (like moving out of red)...

As a tank, one thing that drives me insane (not @ healers, but @ SE) is how regen spells will cause a fresh pull to switch to the healer that cast it. Some healers have picked up on this and try not to have a regen on the tank at the end of a trash-pack.

I wish that SE would take a look at the enmity production of regen spells:

* Overheals shouldn't do a thing. If I'm at full hp and regen ticks 300 on me, nothing on the hate list should take note of that.

* Perhaps there is a way that regens could delay the hate they cause, so that they cause the same amount, but a few seconds later. bad idea

Flash (great aoe hate, paladin's bread and butter) and Circle of Scorn (nice for picking things up, virtually no enmity but it tells the mob hey I'm here) have a very small area-of-effect and Overpower is conal, with a not large area of effect. Combine that with mobs on the move + latency and it's very hard to pick things up.

What I've taken to doing when this happens is just to beat the mobs to the healer, wait for them, and cast flash, but that feels so dirty.

Naturally, the group wants to start dps'ing as soon as they can, but I'm running around playing clean up because the server disagrees with the client about my positioning vs mob's positioning.

For the record, Wow's "threat" model worked pretty much the same, but tanks had ranged aoe attacks, or were able to charge to the mobs and instantly use an ability so that pickup was immediate. Pertinent to the topic because clearly the common mmo combat model is influential to this game, so maybe SE can think about how other companies counteracted problems like this, caused by client<>server communication delay.

Regen should only create threat on intial cast

Meant to make this a point, but yeah, this, even if it's a solid little chunk of hate.

One thing I've noticed is that, because the pet helps, scholars produce a lot less hate than white mages, which neither really ever matters unless something hits the fan and there's a new trash pack on top of us. Even still, that can be countered usually by people playing properly.

Agreed completely. One thing you as a tank can do to alleviate this is go up to your buff bar and click Regen, which will take it off. It's handy for when the WHM accidentally puts Regen on you before a pull.

As a controller player, I haven't found a nice way to pull buffs off myself with the controller and moving a hand to the mouse, while not difficult, defeats the whole purpose. But yeah, I do that on particularly nasty pickups, like the 4 packs (succubus, demon, orb, orb) of AK.

Overheals separate good healers from bad healers.

Dont pull with regen on, right click its buff icon to remove it.

That really applies more to mid-combat. Healers wasteful of mana and GCDs. Regens are what a healer uses to buffer how much they need to cure as well.

Hate is generated as it is received, delaying it wouldn't make sense.

Agreed, just tossing some ideas.

Flash is not "virtually no enmity" flash is like, 1100+ AOE Enmity with a relic weapon equipped. (iirc 1 point of cure = 0.6enm, so its about 1700cure hate)

No, Flash has great enmity. Circle of scorn is virtually no enmity. Flash is the bread and butter of aoe enmity. That, and switching targets as needed.

Also, your team should only be attacking your target anyway, so how about you mark your targets, shield lob for damagex2 enm attack as you run in, hit flash 2 or 3 times to secure everything, and then use halone combo on your main targets as you fight through them.

I do this, but here's a great example. Demon statues come alive in AK, I lob one, and try to scorn others, or flash them. get them all together and flash again (difficult to describe, but I think you understand). Sometimes, the server reacts to a regen and the demons go for the mage. Now, I'll rush there as well, but dps are sometimes already attacking something, and yeah, if they can't react to the situation, that's on them but they attack something else and they get hate (while i'm doing cleanup at the beginning of a messy pull) and the healer has to heal them more, and is generating more hate.

It's entirely workable right now, but it's very frustrating and something SE should look at.

[Pathetic]

Regen should only create threat on intial cast

[Junpei]

Overheals separate good healers from bad healers.

Dont pull with regen on, right click its buff icon to remove it.

Hate is generated as it is received, delaying it wouldn't make sense.

Flash is not "virtually no enmity" flash is like, 1100+ AOE Enmity with a relic weapon equipped. (iirc 1 point of cure = 0.6enm, so its about 1700cure hate)

Also, your team should only be attacking your target anyway, so how about you mark your targets, shield lob for damagex2 enm attack as you run in, hit flash 2 or 3 times to secure everything, and then use halone combo on your main targets as you fight through them.

This is all tried and tested on god knows how many amdapor runs and I dont even want to count the hours I've spent tanking in Coil lol.

[Ceol]

Agreed completely. One thing you as a tank can do to alleviate this is go up to your buff bar and click Regen, which will take it off. It's handy for when the WHM accidentally puts Regen on you before a pull.

[MarniDawg]

To get around this at the beginning of a fight I try to cast stoneskin on the tank before they grab the next group of mobs. It gives the tank more time to generate hate without taking damage I have to cure for. That way by the time I throw up regen it's not much of an issue and I can even help with damage on the trash mobs.

Just something you might suggest to your healer next time. Also yeah click off the buff if it happens to still be up before grabbing your next group of mobs.

[Shiyo]

Regen should not generate the amount of enmity it currently does, same with fairy regen. My fairy always pulls hate at the start of pulls. This was a problem in in another game and quickly got fixed, can't remember the game.

[Steeled]

Edited for some clarification. I didn't mean for a second that flash had poor enmity.

[CyrilLucifer]

Absolutely agreed. Regen's enmity generation is pretty ridiculous, even when it's not overhealing.

[Rin_Kuroi]

Strongly disagree. Regen is supposed to stabilize the tank. It's not there to mitigate damage at the start of a pull (see stoneskin for that). It's also not meant to be given out like candy. It has a solid niche and fills it well.

It's not Renew.

[Aibo]

As a controller player, I haven't found a nice way to pull buffs off myself with the controller and moving a hand to the mouse, while not difficult, defeats the whole purpose. But yeah, I do that on particularly nasty pickups, like the 4 packs (succubus, demon, orb, orb) of AK.

Succubus in AK is a "one way link", from my experience. if you pull her, she will aggro alone, but if you pull others, she will aggro with them.