Just a couple of problems with the Market Boards.

[ShinkuTachi]

I hate the fact that we can all actually see the present price of what is available.
In my opinion, only the price history should be available for viewing; NOT the current sale price for an item on the Market Boards at the time of viewing it or placing it for sale.

Also, the default price when trying to sell something should NOT be the NPC buy-back price. It should be an empty non-value, and the player should be FORCED to input something themselves; rather than have the ability to simply click through.

Other than that, I like it.
Thank you for your time.

***An alternative to my idea of blind bidding

My solution and I think you might agree is to be forced to cancel the auction and then re list it. While doing this you must also pay fees when you list. I don't get not having to pay an upfront fee to list something that you get back if it sells and you don't if it doesn't. Stops two things the first being people listing things they should not be like allagan pieces lol and also stops people from adjusting their price every 30 seconds.

I will agree that the market reacts on supply side prices perhaps a bit too quickly because there is no penalty for improperly listing. If i had to pay 100 gil to list my stack of 99 I would be more inclined to keep it closer tot he average price, and I definitely am not going to re list to counter a 1g under cutter. I just have issues with withholding the supply price.

I also wouldn't be opposed to steeper taxation and an immediate listing charge to the seller; as well as, adding a charge to price adjustment. While it wouldn't cause a fullstop to undercutting, people would be a bit more careful in how they do things.

[Sinbios]

...Who are these people who take the time to list something on the market, and then "simply click through" the price instead of just vending it? They have a fetish for paying sales tax or something?

Also if you hide the current prices people can still go to the market board and look it up. It just adds hassle.

[bwalker36]

Also if you hide the current prices people can still go to the market board and look it up. It just adds hassle.

Exactly. There is no reason not to show the current price. Even if you could not look it up and you can see the history people will still undercut. Its a simple fact of life. If I see the history going for an average of 5k but I really need money I'm going to undercut to sell faster.

[ShinkuTachi]

...Who are these people who take the time to list something on the market, and then "simply click through" the price instead of just vending it? They have a fetish for paying sales tax or something?

It seems that way. I've seen a number of items posted being sold @ NPC price or even below NPC price. I mean, if they want to effectively loose money via taxation that's fine. However, I say the default price should be set at '0' and have the item not be able to be sold unless it is manually set to 1 gil.

Exactly. There is no reason not to show the current price. Even if you could not look it up and you can see the history people will still undercut. Its a simple fact of life. If I see the history going for an average of 5k but I really need money I'm going to undercut to sell faster.

Yes, there will be undercutting, but not so much on the massive scale that we are seeing undercutting now.
As it is now, I've seen items go from 5k for example to less than 500, because people can see the items showing and the lowest price sits at the top of the list. People are seeing each others prices and constantly undercutting each other down to keep themselves at the top.

If we had blind auctions for example, and the average is 5k-ish, most people would be undercutting by a few gil to maybe just a few hundred. Sure, there will be some people who undercut by more, but you wouldn't be seeing items drop from 5k to below 500 in just a matter of a few hours; even if the supply is somewhat high. At least, this has been my experience with games that have used this feature.

*Even though you both disagree with me though; I very much appreciate you both respectfully doing so. Thank you for your input.

[bwalker36]

Those people will undercut anyway and the ridiculous supply is what is killing most of it. You all are also assuming that what you think is the right price is the right price. I personally think its fine and when 4 thousand people are not doing the same thing it will stabilize more.

[Hwasung]

I hate the fact that we can all actually see the present price of what is available.
In my opinion, only the price history should be available for viewing; NOT the current sale price for an item on the Market Boards at the time of viewing it or placing it for sale.

Also, the default price when trying to sell something should NOT be the NPC buy-back price. It should be an empty non-value, and the player should be FORCED to input something themselves; rather than have the ability to simply click through.

Other than that, I like it.
Thank you for your time.

So your position is that incomplete information is better? /boggle

[bwalker36]

So your position is that incomplete information is better? /boggle

To withhold current price values from the buyer is nice for the seller. It helps them to artificially hold up prices longer. They will still fall eventually as no one in their right mindwould actually bid the lowest historic value. You bid 25%(or whatever) less and work up. The current system is way better than XI but falls short of GW2 and EVE. The only thing the wow system has over FFXIV is automatic inflation of prices on listed items so you don't have vendor prices and the fee should be when you list, and re price. While I am okay with undercutting people who have the time to sit there and re undercut by 1g every time is anoying. if you lost 5-10g each time you changed price you would be less inclined to re list every time.

Its a silly notion in my opinion to ever revert back to that garbage AH.

[Kazamoto]

They will still fall eventually as no one in their right mind would actually bid the lowest historic value. You bid 25%(or whatever) less and work up.

This is what the blind auction does, DEMAND based price adjustment, until somewhat normal value is reached.

With what we have now, we have SUPPLY based price adjustment. Sellers see what the competition prices their goods at, and go below.

For an Item that sells 1 per hour, three sellers could list the item at the same time by chance.

Average Price (500)
Seller 1 (450)
Seller 2 (400)
Seller 3 (350)

By the time someone comes to buy, they will pick up the lowest price one, and all other sellers would lower the price of their goods to match.

This does mean that demand is not as high as supply for this item, but the supply and demand curves are not allowed to meet, as the price will plunge below equilibrium before it has a chance to normalize.


Some items should have high prices, but low demand. Melded weapons for relic are a great example of this. The demand for premelded weapons exists, but not at the level they could be produced. Does this mean that melded weapons should sell for less than their base materials?

The materia that go into the weapon have a cost, and they are in higher demand, thus should have a relative higher price.

So, should a melded weapon cost more or less than the materials it requires, when those materials are in higher demand?

If less, why should anyone bother crafting and selling melded weapons?

[ShinkuTachi]

So your position is that incomplete information is better? /boggle

With the lack of players willing to help stabilize the economy (/boggle), yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Those people will undercut anyway and the ridiculous supply is what is killing most of it. You all are also assuming that what you think is the right price is the right price. I personally think its fine and when 4 thousand people are not doing the same thing it will stabilize more.

I'm not saying there is a right or wrong price; I am saying there is zero stability with the set-up we currently have, as both Kazamoto and I have pointed out. Even with the AH from FFXI, there was still a modicum of stability even when supply on items were higher. You didn't see items shoot from 5k to under 500 for example, in just a couple hours because everyone is trying to stay at the top of the list; because on a blind bidding system there is no list of selling prices, only a historical purchase price list.

The prices are not the problem here though, the lack of stability and the lack of any signs of stabilization is the problem. If the Market Boards permanently stay the way they are; hopefully time will fix this problem as you say though. As it is now, it's absolutely ridiculous and I'm not going to be falsely optimistic about it unless I start seeing things change.

[bwalker36]

.....

A couple things:

What we have no is not SUPPLY based price adjustment only. The fact is that a lot of people are just not using it right. You should be looking at the cost to create and the average sales lately. That added to current prices should tell you if the current sell value is worth it. If you are crafting for profits you should not be crafting then looking at the market. The blind system, Is incomplete and only makes markets slower to react becuase of the guesswork involved in driving the price down. And also you would have to have a history of at least the last 100 transactions to look through. Becuase prices could be minipulated so easily.

No prices have truly stabalized yet. Fleece was close but after the changes I expect it to shift again. There are litteraly thousands upon thousands of ore on the ah, with that many on there its going to gravitate closer and closer to vendor value. There is a point at which people will stop selling but supply and demand need to dictate that threshold.

If we are buying it fast the prices will stay relatively stable in any market and if it starts to exceed listings for the lowest price point it will gradually go up. Same with less demand as we are slow to buy a new seller will come in with a lower price until it hits a point that buying outpaces listings and it will rise.

the fact that there is ridiculous supply is the only real issue in my opinion. And people crafting for xp and dumping the goods for really cheep just to make some money back. That will all filter out and the market players and real crafters margins will widen again.

Another point I do not agree with is your question regarding the mats being more then the crafted part. You used the pre relics which I cannot argue becuase they are usefull the deman is just not as high as some items since you only need one per classs. Some items are useless however and thus will cost less than the mats to buy since they have no real value, the value lies in crafting it and xp. The crafter got the value and is trying to get a bit extra from it.

I don't believe there is any true upside to introducing FXI system. A free market system is better in my opinion and XIV is close.

Buyers see supply
Sellers see demand
Buyers see offer price
Sellers see bid price (wait this doesn't exist , hopefully one day)

Old System is:
Demand is partially seen by history
Supply is not seen
Prices react much slower to change since information is withheld.

All in all you are just seeing knee jerk reactions to increased supply, upon looking at most items that do not have 40 or 50+ listings of 99 (thinking 20 listings of varying quantities) I find the prices (items 1k+) to fluctuate 5-15%. Some depends on stack size some just undercutting and they usually stay within a 10-15% range for most listings with of course some outliers.

Gear sucks becuause like I said earlier its passed by quickly, not much demand, and crafters use it to level. The value for those items is in the xp they gain so they will sell below cost becuase at cost they are not worth it to the buyer. That is another thing crafters don't think about in general. I lvl 30 chest that I might use for a few hours got you 5k experience and cost you 1k to make. If you sell it for 1500 you get paid to level. If you get 5k exp, sell it for 500 you only paid 500 for 5k experience and I got a new item for a few hours, that is a win win to me.

Anyways im just rambling on at this point.