Thoughts on Warrior Tank.

[Ipkonfig]

So I know the majority of people believe we can't tank end game, and fine whatever I have no interest in discussing that. I play what I like so I play a warrior. I was talking with another warrior and we had an interesting thought. Defiance should have a damage reduction component based on % health missing, so the lower your HP gets the less damage you take. It fits with the berserker concept of the class and even the name of the ability "Defiance". I know it doesn't fall into the healing tank category, it could be swapped and be a healing buff based on % health missing. But to me the DMG redux fits better with my image of the class, the more punishment you take the harder you fight back.

[oceanlord]

defiant and wrath system really need a remake, idk how
its just stupid atm

[Lemon8or]

How about the lower the HP you are, the higher the additional healing? It'd be even better in my opinion.

[Kenji1134]

Just make the +15% healing bonus passive with Defiance.
Actually, bump that up to a 20% bonus.
That way War has 25% more hp, and gets 20% more healing, so "roughly" equal increase in survivability.
This is compared to PLD who gets 20% mit, hp / 0.8 dmg taken = 1.25x HP, but in essence has a built in 25% "effective" healing mod, as is the nature of mitigation.

So why not make War's 25% as well? Cause PLD is still billed as the "less dps, less aggro, more survivability" tank. So give War a little less survivability, but let them use Wrath to dps and self-heal to their heart's content.

PS. Please dont make this post into yet another argument of War dps/healing vs PLD cooldowns. This is aimed solely at making Defiance more stable and easier to use.

[hola]

defiant and wrath system really need a remake, idk how
its just stupid atm

Blood Presence
Instant
Requires Death Knight
Requires level 57
You assume the presence of Blood, increasing Stamina by 25%, increasing base armor by 55%, and reducing damage taken by 10%. Threat generation is also significantly increased.



Defensive Stance
Instant 1.5 sec cooldown
Requires Warrior
Requires level 9
A tanking combat stance.

Decreases damage taken by 25%.
Significantly increases threat generation.
Generates 1 Rage every 3 sec while in combat.

[Kiaris]

Ill be honest, i love my WAR.. my PLD is almost level 47 now..

But why would they ever make the WAR take hits as good as a PLD ?

Now before you rage.. This entire issue is.. Why do people want a WAR for the Coil.. when a PLD can do it better from how the forums read.
If you give the WAR the same survival as the PLD,

Why would you take a PLD now ? All we did was just change the table on what tank is needed. Take the WAR who does much more damage.


There will sadly never be a good balance in the tanks, 1 Does more Damage and Tanks, One Takes less damage and tanks.

You cannot have.
1 takes less Damage and Does more DMG
1 Takes same Damage and Does more DMG
Both does not work.


How do we fix WAR ? To me that can be done. but not the ways suggested so far in increasing armor, etc.

Biggest Change needs to be Inner beast.
Change the Values Have it throw up a shield that does not mess with SCH shield.
Give Defiance a Passive 10%-15% healing Bonus.

To me.. Inner beast is my biggest issue, I take spike damage, whatever. I use inner beast to counter it.. but.. Both Healers just dropped big heals on me causing overhealing and wasted Mana and innerbeast.

I would rather Throw a self shield up before the big hit, or after the hit for healers to have time to fix me up.

so in Reality to me.. (I am not a designer, i am a player.. this may be terrible)

Defiance - +10-15% healing passive
Stacks up to 5x Times
2% Crit Per stack
For Each Stack, Steel Cyclone Gains 50 Potency to a Max of 250 + Emnity Gain at 5 stacks
For Each Stack, Inner Beast gains a 90% of dmg Dealt shield Max of 375% HP Shield based on Damage.

Read Below before comments on these numbers.


Steel Cyclone - Potency based on Wrath Stacks - + Emnity
Inner beast - Shields self, Potency based on Wrath Stacks.
Defiance - Reduce WAR's Damage by 30-35% instead of 25%.


This could be off, but it has potential.

If we want WAR tanking, we have to Do less Damage, Get rid of the healing Aspect from Inner Beast.. Allow us to Inner beast/Steel Cyclone more often as needed would completly change the style of the class.

Paladin still takes Overall Less damage, WAR can now deal with Spike Damage easier.

(Values will most likely need adjusted based on testing)

[Conna]

The math has been done and actually warrior dps is only slightly higher than a paladins... so that argument needs to be dropped.

[Kiaris]

The math has been done and actually warrior dps is only slightly higher than a paladins... so that argument needs to be dropped.

So a PLD in tank stance at -20 % dmg does near the same damage as a WAR in tank stance at -25% dmg then a +30% dmg boost from Maim and Storms Eye ?

So.. the -20% dmg from PLD in tank stance is = to the +5% dmg in Tanks stance for WAR ?


What ?

[Conna]

Actually has more to do with the usage of their cds needless to say look through the forum you'll find the page where the dps of each has been calculated. Were only ever so slightly higher dps.

[Hachiko]

So a PLD in tank stance at -20 % dmg does near the same damage as a WAR in tank stance at -25% dmg then a +30% dmg boost from Maim and Storms Eye ?

So.. the -20% dmg from PLD in tank stance is = to the +5% dmg in Tanks stance for WAR ?


What ?

In tank stance WAR has a slight advantage over PAL if you want to look at it from a potency perspective. PLD has Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn, which are pretty dramatic increases to potency output per unit time.


Just looking at PLD Rage combo is ~203 potency per global, Spirits Within and Circle add 25 each per global, for a total of 50 potency per global. Auto attack works out to ~83 potency per global. These together put PLD at 336 potency per global. Then you add Fight or Flight and Shield Oath for *.8 * 1.1 = ~295 potency.

For WAR it's ~206 potency per global average, but WAR has no off-GCD attacks (other than Mercy Stroke which can basically be ignored due to the timeframe it is usable and its cooldown). Adding in Auto Attacks puts that at ~289 potency per global Storm's Eye and Maim work out to a buff of ~33%. 10% crit works out to about 5%. Berserk (if it's uncleansed) works out to ~5%. And Defiance is -25%. This leaves Warriors at ~314 potency per global.

This puts the jobs easily within 10% of each other in tank stance, with warriors having a slight lead. A WAR could theoretically increase the numbers a little by use of fracture (so could the PLD but not as much), and Unchained / Internal Release. But these are all pretty meager over time, and in general, unchained is a very situational use ability. Also it should be noted that Berserk is also situational use, and should probably not be used on Cooldown, so it's a little unfair to include it but I did it anyway. In general it should be saved Inner Beast, but also can be used to boost early enmity or burn phases.

If WAR had to take a 35% hit of damage in defiance, as you suggested, they would be significantly below PLD on damage output, and significantly below them in single target threat generation.

Note this is all approximated, and based on the idea that potency is based off of weapon damage. It's obviously not precise but intended to give an idea of the differences. There are more factors which come into play, obviously, such as WAR going for higher STR.