Warrior "Offtank is not the Job intention" currently it's broken.

[Kitru]

The ability to lessen the big blow so the healers can top of you and the rest of the group is key

And Inner Beast does nothing to *lessen* the big blow. It simply frontloads the healing at the cost of further healing down the line. Inner Beast>Infuriate is the only time you'd want to use it and that only crops up once every minute. In any other case, even *with* the big bursts of damage, you're better off just taking it and waiting for the heal from your healers like a PAL does since the percent damage is the same.

Like I said good WARs are viable and are doing the content. But there is a big difference between the good ones and the mediocre ones. Being a good PLD is much easier then being a good WAR thats why you see so many PLDs.

There's a big difference between "viable" and "balanced", which is what most WARs bring up. Yes, it's possible to run content with a WAR as main tank (viable), but PAL is pretty much *always* the better option (not balanced). The argument that PAL has worse DPS has been regularly demonstrated to be completely wrong so there's not even *that* advantage that they bring.

[Vic_Viper]

In reality there are only 2 fights that a warrior cannot tank - phase 3 of turn 4, and turn 5. In every other fight a Warrior is viable with gear.

This is somewhat annoying to people who spent time/money/mythology tokens to gear up their Warrior.

[Derza]

And Inner Beast does nothing to *lessen* the big blow. It simply frontloads the healing at the cost of further healing down the line. Inner Beast>Infuriate is the only time you'd want to use it and that only crops up once every minute. In any other case, even *with* the big bursts of damage, you're better off just taking it and waiting for the heal from your healers like a PAL does since the percent damage is the same.

That is only true if you require 15000 heals or more over a 20 second period - if your inner beast hits for 1200... (if it hits for 800 you would have to be at 10k or more, and if you land one for 2k you would have to be needing heals of 25k or more in 20 secs). In most situations you are better off using Inner beast right after taking a big hit to insure you don't die before a heal can land on you..

This calculation is done on the assumption that by using inner beast your +% heals for the duration it takes to get back up to 5 stacks is an average of 7% meaning you are down 8% healing then if you had full stacks all the time. So 8% of 15000(healing needed to break even over not using inner beast) = 1200, 8% of 10000 = 800, and 8% of 25000 = 2000. And i think the best on average a healer can heal for over 20 secs is somewhere around 12000 that is if they cast cure every 2.5 secs with an average heal of 1500 per (guessing here, some input from others would be nice). The really well geared warriors are seeing inner beast heals around 1500 non crit and ~2200 crit and with cooldowns + crit nearly reaching 4k heals. Right now my inner beast heal for around 1000-1150 with just maim + storm's eye and my gear is far from the best.

[Kitru]

That is only true if you require 15000 heals or more over a 20 second period - if your inner beast hits for 1200... (if it hits for 800 you would have to be at 10k or more, and if you land one for 2k you would have to be needing heals of 25k or more in 20 secs). In most situations you are better off using Inner beast right after taking a big hit to insure you don't die before a heal can land on you..

Except you're operating under the assumption of only a single healer. If there's a single healer, it's, effectively, a break even. With Berserk up, it's reasonably better, but as soon as you get into an 8 man party where you're packing 2 healers, unless one of your healers is incapable of healing you for whatever reason (such as having to throw out some AoE heals, though any situation that presses a tank hard enough that they need to use their heals as such is pretty much *never* a situations that shares a lot of immediately dangerous AoE; in Ifrit HM, after Hellfire, everyone needs heals but only the tank is really at risk of dying since there isn't really much AoE damage afterwards; as such, healers should focus on bringing the tank up immediately after Hellfire and *then* have 1 swap over to AoE heals once the tank is set), you're better off *not* using Inner Beast. It simply doesn't provide enough to offset the loss of healing incurred.

[Derza]

Except you're operating under the assumption of only a single healer. If there's a single healer, it's, effectively, a break even. With Berserk up, it's reasonably better, but as soon as you get into an 8 man party where you're packing 2 healers, unless one of your healers is incapable of healing you for whatever reason (such as having to throw out some AoE heals, though any situation that presses a tank hard enough that they need to use their heals as such is pretty much *never* a situations that shares a lot of immediately dangerous AoE; in Ifrit HM, after Hellfire, everyone needs heals but only the tank is really at risk of dying since there isn't really much AoE damage afterwards; as such, healers should focus on bringing the tank up immediately after Hellfire and *then* have 1 swap over to AoE heals once the tank is set), you're better off *not* using Inner Beast. It simply doesn't provide enough to offset the loss of healing incurred.

That would be the case only if both healers were spam healing you 100% of the time for a full 20 seconds... and my estimate of 12000 healing from each healing might be a little high... i think most non crits are around 1k so more like 8-10k every 20 secs so say 10k x2 = 20k would mean an inner beast of 1600 to make it a wash, and that is under the assumption that NONE of the healing from the healers is over-heals over that duration. I think its pretty safe to say that in "most" situations you are better off using it right after a big hit (reduced chance of causing over healing as well as reduced chance of death).

Keep in mind that the inner beasts heal comes when you need it the most... so even if the potential total heals is a bit lower, if you have 1k HP left and the boss auto attacks for 1k+ and the cast time of a heal is 2.5 secs Id much rather have an extra 1k-2k heal now and miss out on maybe that much health over the course of the next 20 secs. It has its uses and is not meant to be spammed whenever its up that is for sure.

[Kitru]

That would be the case only if both healers were spam healing you 100% of the time for a full 20 seconds...

The only time that the healers *aren't* going to be focus healing the tank is when there is a lot of AoE damage going out and, at that point, the tank is taking a comparatively small amount of damage. You don't have times when the tank is being pressured *and* there is more than a modicum (i.e. a single cast of Medica 2) of AoE healing required. You either have tank pressure *or* AoE pressure, not both.

Also, you're making the assumption that Inner Beast isn't going to equate to overhealing either. The only time you can actually guarantee that you'll get everything out of Inner Beast is if neither of your healers are currently casting on you. If they *are* casting on you, chances are pretty good that Inner Beast is going to force a reasonably large portion of *their* healing into overheal.

The situations required to actually make Inner Beast spam actually beneficial are so tight that it's pointless to bring it up: you have to have distracted healers that aren't currently casting on you with regularly occurring immediate risk of death. Pretty much the only case that you want to regularly use Inner Beast with is Inner Beast>Infuriate right after a big hit. In any other case, you're making a *really* inefficient exchange for no real reason.

There's a reason that the Wrath consuming abilities are generally considered to be terrible: Wrath stacks are simply *too* valuable. Yes, Inner Beast is nice, but the amount of situational specificity required to actually make it cost effective prevents it from actually being useful. The only time you can safely use it without the net loss that regularly occurs when you use it is when you've got Infuriate to, effectively, eliminate the cost. The cost:benefit ratio of Inner Beast is too heavily skewed towards the cost.

[Toranja]

That doesn't mean a WAR can't do it if needed. A good WAR can still perform to that of a PLD. Key word being "good" as most as far from it. That's where the community comes in ... everyone has run with those war's that have no clue to use cd's and their healing. Half of them run at 5 wrath stacks for an entire instance clueless. So yes the community will judge based on what they see

Because WARs should be using Inner Beast with random strangers. Spoken like a true PLD.

[Derza]

The only time that the healers *aren't* going to be focus healing the tank is when ...

When healers are focusing ( focusing =/= 100% spamming heals ) the tank they are not constantly casting 100% of the time... You keep saying inner beast spam... It is not meant to be spammed... It is a reactional skill based off the situation not something you use when ever it is up ( just like all the other tanking skills).

Want to make sure its known that i am not trying to argue that warrior is fine how it is, the problem with warrior is that its mitigation scales with warrior damage while paladins mitigation scales with mob damage and this makes the viability of warrior main tanks worse and worse as you get to higher end content and harder hitting bosses ( going to be much worse with 24 man content). I think adding a flat 10% healing on defiance and making inner beast either a 50% heal and 50% shield or 100% shield would be a good solution to this.

[Kitru]

It is not meant to be spammed...

When I refer to Inner Beast spam it's referring to any use of Inner Beast without immediately using Infuriate afterwards. Because it takes ~20 seconds to rebuild your Wrath stacks so that you can use Inner Beast again, you have a window to use Inner Beast 1-2 times between "non-spam" usage of Inner Beast.

[Derza]

When I refer to Inner Beast spam it's referring to any use of Inner Beast without immediately using Infuriate afterwards. Because it takes ~20 seconds to rebuild your Wrath stacks so that you can use Inner Beast again, you have a window to use Inner Beast 1-2 times between "non-spam" usage of Inner Beast.

K, I still think you are making assumptions without doing the calculations to support your theories, the only way what you are saying can be true is if a boss is doing 1,000 + DPS to the tank over a 20 sec duration. I think the only place this might happen is in coil turn 4 and 5... And warriors that would be there would be doing 1500 inner beast heals minimum and ranging up to if not surpassing 4,000 ( all cooldowns + crit ).

I still believe inner beast is used to recover from spike damage and should not be used with sustained healing in mind. Spike damage is when you need the heals fast not when you are just taking auto attack boss damage. As far as i know no bosses do back to back huge damage attacks meaning by the time they do another large attack your % healing will be close to if not back to capped at 15%. Its by no means the end all be all skill, but saying it has no uses is absurd.