It's not just the WAR that needs tweaking

[MBTL90]

Spirits Within: Spirits within is off the gcd. At the very least, it is (usually) a free, 300 potency attack that you can use in between your threat combo. This makes it, before damage modifiers, one of the hardest hitting melee skills in the game. If that were all, it would still be fine, but it is also a silence. Of recent note, this is hugely useful on the Dhorme Chimera, because it means you can do other things besides just auto attack and still interupt.

Hallowed Ground: I don't get your complaints about this at all. This is spell is awsome. It's funny seeing warriors complain about paladins and not mention this ability, because this is the true reason paladins are OP. 10 seconds immunity to damage, and it doesn't even drop threat like it did in WoW? This is the ultimate tanking ability.

[Ruminate]

Also, you compare these to a ranged classes level 12 ability as if it were supposed to be on par? I think you are making my point for me.

Yes, you correctly listed the PLD's core enmity generating abilities. They are good, but not great damage. Potency is not the end all and if you think that activating Sword Oath suddenly makes us a viable DPS class then our discussion ends now. No point in going any further with you.

You're right. No point in furthering this discussion, especially when your logic is "higher level abilities are supposed to be superior to lower level ones"

I guess it'll be awhile before someone else also does the math and finds out that PLD's CP per second is actually higher than the WAR's CP per second.

[CrazyDuck]

what about sentinel and rampart 2 pretty much identical resit buffs and yes you are right and I can totally agree on cover being useless lol I don't think the paladin was thaught through very well and could use another revamping

[Lear]

Cover, useless? Negative. Covers proven useful on various occasions, including when Provoke is down and you (for whatever reason may be) don't have aggro.

[LunarRei]

I think the point that is being missed is that the skills don't flow and the use cases are too marginal. When comparing to other jobs who get major and obvious benefits from their abilities, we are stuck with really lackluster ones that players are finding ways to stick in to situations, rather than complementing the classes play style. I don't think all of you that are defending these are even reading what I had said. Aside from Cover, I actually argued for their usefulness for the most part.

You're right. No point in furthering this discussion, especially when your logic is "higher level abilities are supposed to be superior to lower level ones"

I guess it'll be awhile before someone else also does the math and finds out that PLD's CP per second is actually higher than the WAR's CP per second.

Are low level abilities supposed to be stronger than high ones? If my logic is flawed, then you are just fucked. Also, the emphasis was on Job abilities which should be even more powerful. Fire<FireIII<Flare, Cure<CureII<Benediction, etc. I don't think anyone would argue that higher level abilities should be weaker than low levels, but your poorly chosen words make it seem like you are in favor of it. I'm still flabbergasted that you think we are some sort of dedicated secondary tank.

Ultimately, I am not complaining about the PLD's ability to perform its role. The problem is that the best parts of it's role are found as a GLA. Looking at each job side by side and the only other one that stands out as being completely lackluster is the BLM (some might argue the BRD, but I like them personally). But that also isn't to say that what the BLM has is useless, far from it. It just doesn't feel very Black Magey.

Once again, 2 stances, an ability that people are forcing themselves to use in f'd up situations instead of playing right, a high damage silence on 30 sec CD, and a bubble. Nevermind, I am convinced. All those 1.0 people are stupid for thinking their Paladin was better.

[Zeigus]

There are so many things wrong with this post its just /facepalm worthy. It would a good idea to level to 50 and get a real understanding of whats happening before you start posting about something you know nothing about. Each and every one of those abilities is extremely useful in a multitude of situations and make the difference between a good and an exceptional PLD.

[Ehayte]

Lunar, you're initial idea for this thread was viable and a great discussion point, but it has unfortunately declined into an argument that is based on ego, for the most part.

I'm only 35, but I have raided end-game on other games, and I have a strong feeling Cover and Hallowed Ground are going to be absolutely instrumental factors in the end-game bosses. They are awesome utilities (maybe not great in group-play) and they will be very useful. I don't really like Sword Oath that much, but it does kind of give you validity when you are not in an MT role. What I really wish we had was a group heal off the GCD with a long refresh that costs a lot of MP, or something else curative that can draw enmity, all we get is a piddly cure1? I wanted more healing firepower : (

[Ariyn]

Man I love seeing people that don't even have the abilities yet say "Remove them" as if they know what use they are.

Spirits Within is a huge part of our gameplay at 50 since it is an off GCD interrupt vs casters not to mention just a flat out potency increase thats off the GCD. Removing it would hurt us more then anything.

Sword Oath is just meh. It actually pulls more threat then Shield Oath but doesn't offer the dmg reduction which is key. I'd prefer if they gave it just a flat out damage increase and emnity REDUCTION so when we are OTing we could at least do some decent dmg.

Cover is situationally useful. Granted the only time I ever used it was to save a heals life while OTing HM Garuda but it can be used anytime we are offtanking to save the MT as well. Healers get behind pop cover to give them a few seconds to catch up.

Hallowed Ground: So basically you just want to nerf us to being immobile while it's up right? Thanks you must be a WAR main.

Lore or not these abilities for the most part give us the utility of the class. If you choose not to use them thats on you but the good players will put them to use as needed. I can't tell you a single boss fight that I haven't used all of these except cover. Yea even Sword Oath during burn phases for the little bit of extra damage.

TL;DR get to 50 and actually use the abilities to see what they do before you judge and say remove them or change because it doesn't fit what you think it should be. Lore doesn't fit for you then find a class that does

Are low level abilities supposed to be stronger than high ones? If my logic is flawed, then you are just fucked. Also, the emphasis was on Job abilities which should be even more powerful. Fire<FireIII<Flare, Cure<CureII<Benediction, etc. I don't think anyone would argue that higher level abilities should be weaker than low levels

Exactly how much of this game have you played of even researched about?

50 Blm rotation still uses Fire I heavily as it procs firestarter to get free Fire III casts. Without it their dps plummets due to the high mp costs.
WHMs spam cure I to get instant and free Cure II as well as other things.

All of the abilities in game both low and high level mesh together and still at 50 all have to be used to do the jobs properly. The game is designed around the potency of attacks not around a base damage of them. Potency does not increase or decrease but the strength does increase with str/dex/int/mnd and weapon damage. So higher end your spells and attacks get stronger. All of them from the level 1 attacks to the level 50 ones

[Kryzen]

On the topic of PLD DPSing:

Wouldn't running GLD be > then PLD if you were trying to maximize DPS? Sure you lose Sword Oath and Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn is GLD skill, but you can take CD skills like:

Invigorate (+500tp)
Blood for Blood (+30% dmg, +25% dmg received)
Raging Strikes (+20% dmg)
Internal Release (+20% Crit)

As PLD off tanking while DPSing:

Maybe it is my warrior in my FC who sucks at threat generation but I will end up tanking any mob that I am focusing down, regardless of what Oath I run. Which makes me, in regards to the above, think a GLD as DPS will still end up tanking.

(i know i pull more threat because we generally have to run war, pld, whm, smn in 4 man dungeons because our dps suck ass at leveling and we are the only ones at or near 50).

[Hachiko]

On the topic of PLD DPSing:

Wouldn't running GLD be > then PLD if you were trying to maximize DPS? Sure you lose Sword Oath and Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn is GLD skill, but you can take CD skills like:

Invigorate (+500tp)
Blood for Blood (+30% dmg, +25% dmg received)
Raging Strikes (+20% dmg)
Internal Release (+20% Crit)

As PLD off tanking while DPSing:
Maybe it is my warrior in my FC who sucks at threat generation but I will end up tanking any mob that I am focusing down, regardless of what Oath I run. Which makes me, in regards to the above, think a GLD as DPS will still end up tanking.

(i know i pull more threat because we generally have to run war, pld, whm, smn in 4 man dungeons because our dps suck ass at leveling and we are the only ones at or near 50).

A PAL will actually out DPS a GLD running those skills for a few reasons.
First off, the skills you listed are with their "enhanced" effects, so they are significantly less effective than what you've posted for off class. The big question then becomes: Is Sword Oath and Spirits Within worth all these cooldowns?

1: Invigorate is 400 TP, but TP isn't really an issue with PAL dps. In most fights there are enough breaks that you will never run out of TP (i.e. Ifrit Charges, Garuda Blasts, etc.)
2: Blood for Blood = 20% damage for 20 seconds on an 80 second CD. That's a 25% uptime of 20% damage increase, which works out to ~5% damage increase overall.
3: Raging Strikes = 20% damage for 20 seconds on a 180 sec CD. That's 11% uptime, which works out to an overall ~2.2% damage increase.
4: Internal Release = 15% crit for 15 seconds on a 60 sec cd. This is harder to measure its contribution, but at low crit rates you can approximate to 15% chance to deal 50% more damage, with a 25% uptime, which works out to ~2% damage increase overall.

Altogether, that's about 10% increase in damage output for those 3 cooldowns, perhaps slightly higher depending on whether they stack multiplicatively or additively (also keep in mind if they are multiplicative you still have the issue of losing buff time when trying to stack 4 DPS buffs, due to animation speed).

Now we have to approximate the value of Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within

To do this we look at the average DPS output for PAL's highest output combo: Rage of Halone. This works out to ~200 potency per 2.5 second global. Note that Riot Blade can be used as well for hate management, if you're worried about pulling, because it's only a slight potency loss at ~190 potency average per global. So if you're trying to NOT tank, you should avoid using Rage of Halone (other than to apply the debuff).

Turns out this is not accurate. PAL auto attacks hit more frequently than 2.5 seconds. This doesn't change the auto attack potency per GCD, but it does change the contribution from Sword Oath. This makes Sword Oath even better depending on the speed of your weapon. PAL auto attacks also hit every 2.5 seconds, which is conveniently the global cooldown as well. The potency is WepSpd/3 * 100, or ~83.
Then you also add in Sword Oath, which adds another 50 Potency per auto attack.

So if a Paladin is going through their normal rotation Without Sword Oath they will be ~280 potency per 2.5 seconds. With Sword Oath ~330 Potency per 2.5 seconds. So Sword Oath alone works out to ~a 18% increase in damage output. This is already more than the contribution those 3 DPS buffing skills would provide. But there's more.

Circle of Scorn, assuming you get full duration is an additional 250 potency every 25 seconds (works out to 10 potency per second), or 25 potency every 2.5 seconds. But this is usable by both PAL and GLD.

Spirits Within is 300 potency every 30 seconds(again, 10 potency per second) again, 25 potency every 2.5 seconds. However, this is PAL only.

So, a PAL using Scorn and Spirits Within, and Sword Oath will be at about 380 attack potency output every 2.5 seconds, when averaged out. And a GLD using Scorn will be at 305 potency every 2.5 seconds. This is ~24% damage increase.

So, in short, no. A GLD would have no chance of doing more DPS than a PAL. The bonus potency from Sword oath far outstrips the more meager contribution of other classes damage cooldowns. People are HUGELY underestimating how amazing Sword Oath is. When a PLD is outside of shield oath, they actually are fairly competitive with DPS when compared to a WAR outside of Defiance. This is because WAR gets absolutely nothing from the WAR job while not being in their Defiance, while PLD gets Sword Oath, and Spirits Within.

The best part about it, is that for a PAL all they have to do is turn on Shield Oath, cast a Provoke, and pick up tanking if need be. This is one of the reasons it always makes me laugh a little when people say WAR make such better offtanks because of their DPS contribution. PAL can have just as competitive contribution as offtanks.