A letter to Square

[Abriael]

Hey Abriael are there any points that Skye has said that you actually do agree with?

I don't think so. And I don't see why there should be.

[Xeonerable]

I don't think so. And I don't see why there should be.

As I suspected.

[Abriael]

As I suspected.

Yeah, a place where everyone has the same idea in a circle of reciprocal back-patting would be a lot of fun. Or maybe not so much.

I enjoy the discussion, and I'm quite sure Skye does as well (or she's incredibly masochistic), so I'm not exactly sure what your problem is. Does discussion in a discussion forum offend you?

[Pebe]

Just going to jump in and say that I think SE learned their lesson with FFXIII, when they made FFXIII-2. FFXIII-2, in my opinion, is the exact opposite of linear, and there is towns :P! I kind of find it funny how they did did FFXIII-2, here's why:

Director 1: Our fans keep complaining over and over again about FFXIII being linear
Director 2: Fine then, lets show them what we are truly capable of!
Director 1: You don't mean!?
Director 2: That's right bob! We're going to the fourth dimension!

In all seriousness though, I would like to hear your opinions of FFXIII-2, and whether or not you have hope for FFXIII-3.

[Abriael]

Just going to jump in and say that I think SE learned their lesson with FFXIII, when they made FFXIII-2. FFXIII-2, in my opinion, is the exact opposite of linear, and there is towns :P! I kind of find it funny how they did did FFXIII-2, here's why:

Director 1: Our fans keep complaining over and over again about FFXIII being linear
Director 2: Fine then, lets show them what we are truly capable of!
Director 1: You don't mean!?
Director 2: That's right bob! We're going to the fourth dimension!

In all seriousness though, I would like to hear your opinions of FFXIII-2, and whether or not you have hope for FFXIII-3.

FFXIII-2 was a better game than the first. It had some very interesting elements, while it wasn't a masterpiece.

The ironic part is that it received worse scores and less praise than XIII, because of XIII (another sign of the irrationality that permeates the internet nowadays).

FFXIII-3 has me worried because of the real-time mechanic. I hope the story won't be sacrificed to that. But I'll see how it'll be with an open mind, as usual.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Unfitting comparison. Final Fantasy XIII is still a RPG. Square Enix didn't change genre. They merely tried to find some evolution *within* the genre.

Comparing FFXIII with Activision turning Call of Duty into a RPG is completely unfitting, as that would be a radical change of genre. You can compare it with something like Activision trying to put some RPG elements within the Call of Duty franchise.

Guess what? That's exactly what they did. And it worked very well.

But did they do that at the expense of something else that COD players have come to like in the franchise? No, they didn't. So that's not a very good comparison.

lol Analogies don't have to be 100% like each other, Abriael. That's why they're called "analogies". And I think mine serves it's purpose, as it shows that radically changing a formula of any franchise that fans of that franchise have grown to like is not necessarily a good idea. For instance, (here's another analogy, since you weren't keen on the last one) suppose the COD franchise decided to only put one automatic rifle into the game, and that's it? No sniper rifles, no handguns, just one kind of automatic rifle. Now, you can easily kill with this rifle just like you could with any other gun, but that's the only gun you gt and that's it It serves it's purpose, you can play, shoot, and kill with it. Do you think just because it's a good gun that fans of the franchise would appreciate and be fine with the move? Do you really? Because, and I'm not psychic or anything, but I see a mob waving torches and pitchforks if such an even should occur.

And no, it would not be an "evolution" of the franchise to do this. (Evolution, wtf?) Taking such variety out of the game would actually be the opposite, not to mention a stupid move.

The fact that it happens doesn't make it good, and doesn't mean we should encourage and justify it when it's irrational. And in this case it mostly is.
*

And in some cases, it's not. Like having staple elements in a game franchise that fans have grown to love and taking them away from the latest game in the franchise line, a backlash is actually quite appropriate. And to tell you the truth, we should be encouraging such backlashes, because it tells game developers what the fans want. And what they DON'T want.

And then they complain when the game industry is stagnant. No, I'm sorry. There's nothing rational in demanding that developers always abide to the same formula. Numbered Final Fantasy games aren't even sequel of each other, mind you.

Demanding formulaic developement over and over is just stifling creativity. After thirteen (actually more) episode, it's time to allow developers to try something new.

Again, there is a difference between "trying something new" and "taking away key elements in a franchise". Like I said before, trying something new is all well and good. In fact, as I said before, each Final Fantasy brought something new to the table. Revamped battle systems, upgraded graphics, different stories, different sub-quests; each new FF added their own stamp on the franchise. However, making the game totally linear and taking away choices that the players had before is NOT really what I'd call an "evolution". That's like saying "Hey! Let's try something new! Let's make the Ferrarri with two wheels instead of four! It's different, so it's an evolution! Right? RIGHT?" (shakes head) No. Just... no.

The more you stifle creativity and evolution, the more the fanbase will shrink (because some people just get tired of playing the same games over and over, and it's harder for games based on older concepts to gain new fans), condemning the franchise to obscurity on the long run.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I mean, it's not like anyone still plays the COD games and the Madden games after all this time? Right? Right? (facepalm) Come on, Abriael!

Look, not making the game a linear, connect the dots interactive movie is not stopping the game from evolving. Like I said, you and I have some different (VERY different) ideas on what would evolve the franchise. You don't evolve a game by taking away key elements of the game. You evolve a game by, well, evolving the game. Really, this is a no-brainer. For instance, don't take exploration away, make it more rewarding. You know what, I'm going to cut down the size of this thread. Every time you suggest that making a Final Fantasy into a linear straight path full of scripted fights and cutscenes is "evolving" it, I'm just going to refer you to this paragraph by saying "Remember what I said in that one paragraph?" It will save time. For both of us.

That's one of the reasons why devs always look for ways to evolve their formula.

Remember what I said in that one paragraph?

Besides, I sure wouldn't want to be in the shoes of developers that have to abide to formulaic development without room for change. It'd become an extremely boring and frustrating job very, very fast (honestly, I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of anyone on the FFXIV staff mind you, because they have to deal with a fanbase portions of which I don't hesitate to define downright nasty, sorry).

Broad sweeping generalizations of a fanbase don't help your argument. Indeed, some fans can be downright nasty. Then again, some developers can be downright close-minded and stubborn.

On the other hand, some developers have an open ear and a compromising heart. While there are some fans who really want the franchise to succeed and get better who have concerns, criticisms, and suggestions to voice that can be worth taking the time to listen to. Yes, game developing is a demanding job. And like any business with lots of fanbases, it can have nasty customers. And nasty people who work there. But not all of them are.

Constructive and rational criticism. Of which I see very little from certain fringes of the FF fanbase (and from part of the press).

Maybe you're not looking hard enough. Or maybe you simply pay more attention to the people who troll and rage than you do to the people who have honest criticisms about the franchise. I, personally, see quite a bit of both on the internet. Enough of both kinds to know better than to make a broad generalization of the fabase, whether it be positive or negative.

The more you anchor change to old elements the less change you'll be able to instill. And after a while you'll just grind it to a halt.

Remember what I said in that one paragraph?

You're still talking for the "people who have been with the franchise for years". I'm "people who have been with the franchise for years" (Since the Final Fantasy as a matter of fact). You don't represent me, thank you very much

lol To every rule, there's a few odd exceptions. In this case, very odd. XD

But as i said before, there's a difference between "representing" and "repeating" the words of people from a fanbase. Just because I agree with those words doesn't necessarily dub me the representative. No thank you to that job. lol

You don't even have any tangible element to demonstrate that you represent a real majority.

You don't have any proof that I don't. lol

But I CAN give you proof that enough people had a problem with the linearity that it was posted on many blogs, many editorial sites, and Squeenix themselves felt the need to step forward to defend the linearity of the game, as well as a few apologists.

Not necessarily. Some parts of it are easier, some parts of it are harder. Linear games have entirely different (and more stringent) pacing requirements than open world games, for instance.

True, but my point is, the game was extremely linear compared to the others in the franchise.Regardless of whether or not linear games come with their own set of challenges and whatnot, the question is, should a Final Fantasy game be that linear? A large chunk of the fanbase says "No".

Mind you, I find it rather funny that you and some others continue to describe the previous Final Fantasy games as some open world miracles, as for most of them the open world "freedom" was just a mere illusion, as progression was extremely linear. Sure, you could go around, but that gave you almost nothing and you had to return to the linear path in order to get any kind of progression.

Open world games are games that allow you to progress in multiple directions freely. Final Fantasy games have never been part of that group. Final Fantasy XIII just removed the illusion, and just for half of the game.

The "freedom of exploration" you're holding up as a banner never existed in anything else than very few limited elements and part of Final Fantasy XII (the story of which suffered in exchange for the limited freedom). Anywhere else it was an illusion.

Want "freedom of exploration"? You're playing the wrong franchise.

Please do let that sink.

Oy vey, lol. You're just not getting it, Abriael.

Sure, you had to eventually go back to the game in order to do more if you wanted to progress. But the thing is, that freedom of choice is one of the things that people liked aout Final Fantasy as a franchise. Sure, you could go ahead and take out the bad guy and win the game if you're strong enough. OR you can become the master of a simple card game. OR you can race, raise, and breed powerful chocbos that help you cross water. OR you can go explore for that super-ultra cool wowser dippity doo weapon that's hidden in the monster-filled cave. OR you can go hunting for monster bounties and earn cash and a name for yourself. OR you can go play an underwater sports game in which you have to hold your breath for impossibly long periods of time in order to win fame and fabulous prizes.

See, that's one of the things about Final Fantasy that players love. And while the freedom is just an illusion, as you'll eventually have to go back to playing the game if you don't want to just be wandering aimlessly around, that illusion was awesome. The same thing can be said for being in towns, in which some people (like myself) liked talking to just about every person that's in the town and seeing what they had to say, or going in houses and stealing... erm, I mean finding rare treasure, or listening to the lore of what happened in the town back in such and such days... See, that' what separates games like Final Fantasy from things like books or TV shows.The story progresses how you want it to progress when you want it to progress. In a book, the party might head to the shops, buy weapons, go to the inn, sleep, and wake up to lave town the next day in search of their quest. In the game, your party might hit town, take in the shops, play a mini game, do a subquest, watch a show, fight some monsters and become stronger, read some books or tablets or whatnot that tell you about the town or world you live in... THAT is one of the things people loves about not just Final Fantasy games, but RPGs in general. You show me a Final Fantasy that's giving you the "illusion" that you're roaming freely and immersing yourself in a world, and I'll show you a Final Fantasy that's doing it's job and doing damn fine at it.

[SkyeWindbinder]

As I suspected.

lol Relax, Xeon. Though I completely disagree with Abriael (in fact, his arguments are somewhat confusing to me, to say the least), I do enjoy having a light-hearted debate every now and again, as long as it's kept civil. Nothing wrong with that. It does let us allow our opinions to be seen, and it's interesting to me to see someone with clashing views. I'm all for it, actually.

[Kallera]

Well, I saw the memo, and well, I think Gametrailers missed the mark.

Fact is I'm not sure anyone knows what they want from SE, and are merely insisting that it exist as they want it to or die.

I will say this though, a FF7 remake is not the answer, not now, not with how the fans currently are.

For some, that means a FF7 remake for PS4 with all the Triple A production costs and movie magic.

Sure they want it, but is it to simply play that game and only that game, or can they be brought to other games in the franchise, or new IPs? I sort of get the line they've been using, that Final Fantasy as a series needs to get out of its funk and provide worthy current titles before remaking 7, or else rehashing old games will be their shtick, and it will eventually bleed out the fanbase as they want either more and more of the same, but with high risk production costs and "bet the farm" development. That may be how the franchise started, but if it ends from it, it'll be sad.

Also, I don't know about you, but calling a 2-3 million copy selling game a failure is completely bonkers for expectations. Are the production costs for game going that batshit insane that every person with a PS3 and several thousand people who don't must buy the game to be considered a success? There are companies who would kill to see those numbers for their creations. I hope I'm not the only one seeing something wrong with this, and I can't trust a remake of FF7 until those skyrocketing costs get dealt with in some manner, either with smart budgeting and development, the coming of the next game generation, or, Twelve forbid; the crash of the gaming industry.

So what is the answer? well, I'd suggest there's some merit in looking for new IPs to work with, or coming up with rebooting old IP titles that haven't been redone 5-10 times on every handheld. What would the Tomb Raider treatment look like for the Mana Series? Final Fantasy may be the cash cow, but it shouldn't be SE's only one.

And no, I don't think they should(Nor do I think they'll consider it) ending the Final Fantasy franchise to survive. It's a symbol of gaming innovation and creativity and the bountiful rewards that come with it. It's end would be akin to Bruce Lee's passing: tragic, too soon, and soon followed by a horde of impersonators and cash grab works in a attempt to exploit some of the mana that still remains from the void it'll make in the buyer's heart.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Well, I saw the memo, and well, I think Gametrailers missed the mark.

Fact is I'm not sure anyone knows what they want from SE, and are merely insisting that it exist as they want it to or die.

I will say this though, a FF7 remake is not the answer, not now, not with how the fans currently are.

For some, that means a FF7 remake for PS4 with all the Triple A production costs and movie magic.

Sure they want it, but is it to simply play that game and only that game, or can they be brought to other games in the franchise, or new IPs? I sort of get the line they've been using, that Final Fantasy as a series needs to get out of its funk and provide worthy current titles before remaking 7, or else rehashing old games will be their shtick, and it will eventually bleed out the fanbase as they want either more and more of the same, but with high risk production costs and "bet the farm" development. That may be how the franchise started, but if it ends from it, it'll be sad.

Also, I don't know about you, but calling a 2-3 million copy selling game a failure is completely bonkers for expectations. Are the production costs for game going that batshit insane that every person with a PS3 and several thousand people who don't must buy the game to be considered a success? There are companies who would kill to see those numbers for their creations. I hope I'm not the only one seeing something wrong with this, and I can't trust a remake of FF7 until those skyrocketing costs get dealt with in some manner, either with smart budgeting and development, the coming of the next game generation, or, Twelve forbid; the crash of the gaming industry.

So what is the answer? well, I'd suggest there's some merit in looking for new IPs to work with, or coming up with rebooting old IP titles that haven't been redone 5-10 times on every handheld. What would the Tomb Raider treatment look like for the Mana Series? Final Fantasy may be the cash cow, but it shouldn't be SE's only one.

And no, I don't think they should(Nor do I think they'll consider it) ending the Final Fantasy franchise to survive. It's a symbol of gaming innovation and creativity and the bountiful rewards that come with it. It's end would be akin to Bruce Lee's passing: tragic, too soon, and soon followed by a horde of impersonators and cash grab works in a attempt to exploit some of the mana that still remains from the void it'll make in the buyer's heart.

What you said makes nothing but sense. I wish people would stop acting like a remake of FFVII would fix all of SE's problems and be "the" game the fans need. It's so stupid.

[Xeonerable]

lol Relax, Xeon. Though I completely disagree with Abriael (in fact, his arguments are somewhat confusing to me, to say the least), I do enjoy having a light-hearted debate every now and again, as long as it's kept civil. Nothing wrong with that. It does let us allow our opinions to be seen, and it's interesting to me to see someone with clashing views. I'm all for it, actually.

Oh I'm completely mellow my dear. :3

However there was an ulterior purpose to it.