Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[Shougun]

I don't see how they will do it either, but hey, I guess that is why I don't work for SE. I'm sure their lead battle programmers have come up with something that works out well and helps you keep better management of balance in classes/jobs.

How Yoshida talks and works thus far it does seem so (the team has a plan). But its always better to be skeptical about things that are practically impossible to change in hind sight (like a battle system). 4 Years from now SE going "The system sucks.. woops" wouldnt be any good lol.

[Shadow_Sama]

I'm going to side with reality here and say that the class system is here to stay.

You may not like it, but them's the breaks. You're welcome not to play, or to invest a little faith in Yoshida and his team after all of his hard work and actually give him time to work this system into something better than what we had in 1.xx.

Personally, I don't expect the class/job system to be fully evolved in ARR and I don't really care. I enjoy the current system and I'm glad they have the groundwork to add more depth to it.

The one thing people don't realize that restricting it just the job system hamstrings the potential growth of this game. Instead of Job and Class quests it's just Job quests, instead of Job based items and roles and class based items and roles it's just one. You're narrowing your scope for the sake of being a unique little snowflake.

Any and all limitations by having a dual system like class and Job can be overcome by simply expanding on it. Issues with Dark Knight attached to Gladiator can be lifted by creating a secondary weapon type for each class (Greatsword for the case of Gladiator) and given that we wanted a diversified weapon system in this game, this fufills a request while adding further depth to the system as a whole.

In the end my plea is to give this guy some time. He just spent the entirety of two years making a game that should have taken him five, given the normally yield of games out of Square Enix's internal development. It's going to be vanilla version all over again so keep that in mind with the base systems.

So it's going to be a while before we see the fruits of this labor develop. For now, just think of the classes as sub-forms of the jobs and leave it be at that.

No one is disputing that classes are here to stay, and it's pretty lame that you tell people to quit the game and play something just because what were talking about may or may not be considered. This is as much our game as it is yours. You should respect those terms.

The argument about making a class have two different weapons, that have two different ability sets is redundant. If they go that far to give a weapon all the bells and whistles to make it its own, it might as well be a new class entirely. And Gladiator will stay Gladiator, and great sword will stem a new class.

[Reika]

The classes are designed for solo play, and being a class means you can take more skills from other classes for solo survivability. The system just hasn't been tuned properly since the addition of Jobs.

However, remove the class system and you have FFXI all over again with its horrible balancing and certain(most) jobs not being able to survive alone nearly as well as others.

[RoyalSibby]

I've been putting a lot of thought into this lately. We already know from developer letters and posts that a Job system is coming which will feature specialized combat roles. Once this system is implemented, there will be little to no reason to ever use a class role. Why would I play Gladiator when Paladin is better equipped to tank? Why even have the option to be a Marauder if I am fully expected to use Warrior in any and every combat situation? In short, the class system will go unused once we have access to jobs. Why should we bother keeping the class system in-game if it unnecessarily complicates things?

What I propose is the following:

A) All current classes are renamed as follows:

Gladiator → Paladin
Marauder → Warrior
Pugilist → Monk
Lancer → Dragoon
Thaumaturge → Black Mage
Conjurer → White Mage
Archer → Ranger

B) Class abilities are re-assigned as necessary. E.g. Black Mage would receive the nukes/debuffs from Conjurer, but the buff/heal spells would go to White Mage.

C) All references in-game to the previous classes are simply edited and updated. Guild names are updated, NPC references to classes are edited, etc.

I firmly believe that having a job-only system would be an improvement in every which way over the current plan of classes co-existing alongside jobs. For one, traditional job names are part of long-established "Final Fantasy" lore. This will make the game feel more familiar to all the FF fans out there. Secondly, I cannot fathom a single situation where we would want to be entering combat as a class rather than as a job.

The way I see it, the class system is a relic from the old-development direction of this game, and we no longer need it. I cannot see any cons to removing the class system. Cross-job abilities would need to be examined, but surely the cost of doing so is greatly compensated by the benefit of an elegant and simple system which, due to experience with FFXI, we KNOW will work.

No. It gives you less customization. What there doing is like FFXI's advanced Jobs. Work your ass off as a THM(or was it CJN? havn't been on in awhile.), you get WHM.

[xXHalloweenTrixXx]

I personally prefer the removal of classes and just have jobs. Then have it people need to swap jobs via an NPC in town. I sorta dislike the whole swap on the fly classes/jobs.

[GodseijuroHiko]

No. It gives you less customization. What there doing is like FFXI's advanced Jobs. Work your ass off as a THM(or was it CJN? havn't been on in awhile.), you get WHM.

If you haven't been on in some time, how can you make an informed opinion on what gives you more/less customization. We have no idea what they're planning, we're just pointing out roadblocks brought about by the old system. Some have even given thought to how they feel would be the best way to overcome them.

I personally prefer the removal of classes and just have jobs. Then have it people need to swap jobs via an NPC in town. I sorta dislike the whole swap on the fly classes/jobs.

No need to go that far, they can simply just lock you into your job once you enter certain instances. as for open world stuff job changing at a crystal seems more reasonable. Still, I think jobs on the fly fits better. Your opinion is welcomed though!

[GodseijuroHiko]

The classes are designed for solo play, and being a class means you can take more skills from other classes for solo survivability. The system just hasn't been tuned properly since the addition of Jobs.

However, remove the class system and you have FFXI all over again with its horrible balancing and certain(most) jobs not being able to survive alone nearly as well as others.

I keep seeing this "classes for solo, jobs for party" slogan going on. No one is arguing that. (Though thaumaturge is the only worthwhile solo-er *least effort anyway*imo)

This game will only become FFXI if they add sub jobs after removing classes (which they probably won't). It would probably be more like Tactics if classes were removed. The game already has balance issues in terms of solo potential. War, BLM/Thm, and Conj/Whm seem to be top solo. Most classes, I'm aware, are still able to solo in this game, but pound for pound, those mentioned have it much easier.

Using Final Fantasy XI bitterness as a reason for keeping classes is _________

The addition of Jobs sure did add some complications to the system indeed

[Forgo]

I like the way its worked myself gives more to the mix though only using one class to base the stats off of is kinda off..
but it can be fixed by giving jobs a differet stat base then class

[indira]

they just need to treat the classes the same as the jobs, give them AF & relic, give them good moves that jobs cant use. make content just for classes. jobs are just the soul in the story.

class AF & relic would have to be "new" not old and dusty.

[Hyrist]

No one is disputing that classes are here to stay, and it's pretty lame that you tell people to quit the game and play something just because what were talking about may or may not be considered. This is as much our game as it is yours. You should respect those terms.

This isn't your game, this isn't my game. This isn't our game. This is Square Enix's game. Is it built for us? Yes, but we do not own it. There will be design decisions people will disagree with, but will not change. And if they disagree with it venomously enough, it becomes a determent to the community to hear them sit and scream endlessly about it. And if it is a game-breaker for you, it is best that you leave instead of remaining to gripe. It is better for the plaintive, as it quickens the time they'll actually find a game that suits them, and it is better for those who don't need to hear the complaints causing unneeded tension in the forums.

For situations not so extreme there needs to be a deciding point where people learn to just hush up about things they don't like, but will tolerate, especially when you know you will make no headway. Otherwise, you're just blowing steam for the sake of blowing steam and it gets on the nerves of more than just myself. It's just self-gratification at that point, and there's no actual discussion to be had.

And I won't pretend to be tolerant of that sort of behavior. I consider it a base courtesy to know when to bow out quietly and let the lack of a subscription do the talking, and I did so with FFXI. And this is where we're at with the Class system, even if you disagree with it. It is here to stay, it is not going to be eliminated because people see it as a flawed. Instead of insisting on your way and no others, it is better instead to seek a compromise. If you are beyond compromise, you are beyond reason and should not be taking part of what should be a civil discussion.

The argument about making a class have two different weapons, that have two different ability sets is redundant. If they go that far to give a weapon all the bells and whistles to make it its own, it might as well be a new class entirely. And Gladiator will stay Gladiator, and great sword will stem a new class.

That is a possibility, but, one that may not necessarily be the case when things are dolled out pragmatically.

Let's talk possible progress routes for a class bearing more than one weapon type. Gladiator is the best example because of how dramatic the differences are.

Instead of considering a full on ability set swap. Some enhancing skills or even weapon skills (Such as Goring Blade) can be shared between the two weapon types. Of course, in the case of Gladiator this might mean giving them additional neutral abilities to chose between, but we did ask for a larger library of skills that define jobs and classes.

Let's assume that we have 2 jobs per class when the system is fully developed.

We can have a set of skills that are neutral between two weapon types and may or may not be usable by each job.

Then we can have skills unique to that weapon style of class and its corresponding job.

We can already chose to differentiate ability libraries depending on what job you equip. (For Example, a Dragoon only has access to Pugilist and Archer skills.) This can be done further by limiting what class skills are available within that said class when converted into a Job. (Of course the trade off would be more skills unique to the Job itself.)

There's lots that can be done to flush out the system and make it more viable. This concept of cutting things out because you don't like it, when really thus far it's been primarily optional to use it to begin with, makes me wonder what the motives behind such complaints really are. I don't know if it's just ignorance or a desire for simplicity, but the intent to cut out content really does seem like players want to hamstring themselves from better gameplay.