FF14: ARR! World class MMOs? Must be Free to play, League of Legends! enough said .

[IndigoDarkwolf]

Whether FFXIV can survive on a subscription model has nothing to do with whether it goes free-to-play. It depends on the size of the team that developed it, the persistent cost of the server infrastructure, and the size of the team that maintains it and develops new content for it.

Frankly, it will be a long time before FFXIV will be profitable for Square|Enix, no matter what its subscription base ends up being, or whether it goes F2P or not. It's an MMO that's been almost completely restarted, in addition to its initial up-front cost and ongoing server maintenance. It's also possible (maybe even likely) that FFXIV will never be profitable, and that Yoichi Wada knows this, and that 2.0 is more about saving face and repairing his company's tarnished reputation.

I believe free-to-play will result in a worsened play experience than a subscription model. Free-to-play incentivizes developers to water-down the base experience of a game in favor of the up-sold version. It creates pressure for them to contact their users as frequently as possible to try and sell them on the game's paid-for assets. This is why free-to-play games usually become pay-to-win: You've turned the game from a service to a retail outlet. It's the same difference between a fitness club and Wal*Mart. I don't want to give Square Enix an incentive to email me reminders that I haven't played recently, or to give them an incentive to make paid-for weapons of any sort better than the weapons I'll earn in-game. If you ask for the game to go free-to-play, these things will happen. That, or the quests will become for-pay, similar to Dungeons and Dragons Online. Or the player customization. Or maybe even the different zones of the world. Possibly, all of these things. Whatever it is you like most - whatever would make you pay the most - that's what Square Enix is best off barring from you until you pay real money. That's the business model you're asking them to go into. That's what you're asking them to do.

League of Legends is no exception: They operate as a retail outlet for characters and customization, with what could really only be described as a free online trial. They have almost no map or gameplay options. You find a hero you like in the random roster? Then you have to wait for them to cycle back into the roster, or you have to pay real money. And you want the latest Teemo skin? Money, money, money by the pound.

And as a game developer, myself, I tend to find the free-to-play model ethically questionable. Free-to-play games survive on what are called "whales". These are people who spend thousands - thousands - of dollars every month. I can't understand what drives these people to spend this kind of money, and I can't imagine that it represents a healthy relationship with the game. Knowing that they exist leaves me wishing never to work on a free-to-play project.

But in summation, I suppose if you'd really be happy paying nothing and doing nothing except grinding vanilla mobs in New Gridania, then I guess I can't stop you from asking for free-to-play. But please stop jumping on the free-to-play bandwagon as if it will make the game free for you without fundamentally altering your play experience. It will not.

Edit: Oh. Bother. Obviously I fell for the troll.

[Tsubarta]

10/10 post, Indigo. Humor, insight, and frank opinions. I particularly agree with the idea that ARR may never be profitable for SE, but feel that you're being too optimistic about the intention behind the project. For how long it took FFXI to be profitable, and considering that it never had any major hiccups along the way (unless you count WoW coming out and taking over half of its initial base), ARR will take over a decade of consistently strong customer presence to turn profits...especially when you consider high dev costs to create the new content, and the overwhelming difference in legacy payout to the average customer. That would make it the second most successful MMO in history next to WoW alone.

[Preypacer]

10/10 post, Indigo. Humor, insight, and frank opinions. I particularly agree with the idea that ARR may never be profitable for SE, but feel that you're being too optimistic about the intention behind the project. For how long it took FFXI to be profitable, and considering that it never had any major hiccups along the way (unless you count WoW coming out and taking over half of its initial base), ARR will take over a decade of consistently strong customer presence to turn profits...especially when you consider high dev costs to create the new content, and the overwhelming difference in legacy payout to the average customer. That would make it the second most successful MMO in history next to WoW alone.

Just a minor nit-pick here. WoW never even took half of XI's playerbase, much less over half of it.

FFXI had reportedly peaked at around 750k players early on, and then settled off at 500k, which it maintained for several years - despite WoW's release/existence. It's because (at least in part), XI provided a gameplay experience that just about no other MMO out there was really providing. It was rooted in EQ1 style gameplay, yes. But XI most certainly found its own identity, and hit its own stride pretty early on.

The people who stopped playing XI and moved on could have moved on to any number of other games. They weren't all automatically lost to WoW. And anyway, it's typical for a MMORPG to see a "spike" in interest at the beginning with a certain % lost afterward until the population finds its equilibrium.

SE even continued to maintain the same gameplay style and pacing with XI, despite the success of WoW's more casual/accessible approach, and did so right on up 'til Abyssea. Though, early indicators could be seen via systems implemented with Aht Urghan and WoTG that they were trying to attract more casual gamers, they didn't outright go for that market until Abyssea.

Anyway, point is, I think people tend to overstate WoW's effect on FFXI. Though, people tend to overstate WoW's effect on just about everything it seems.

[Raagnar]

10/10 post, Indigo. Humor, insight, and frank opinions. I particularly agree with the idea that ARR may never be profitable for SE, but feel that you're being too optimistic about the intention behind the project. For how long it took FFXI to be profitable, and considering that it never had any major hiccups along the way (unless you count WoW coming out and taking over half of its initial base), ARR will take over a decade of consistently strong customer presence to turn profits...especially when you consider high dev costs to create the new content, and the overwhelming difference in legacy payout to the average customer. That would make it the second most successful MMO in history next to WoW alone.

Do you even know how long it took FFXI to make a profit? SE was reporting profit 1.5-2 years after launch.. which is right on time in the mmo world. 8 years of profit sound nice to me.

I remember when WoW came out and it did not take half of FFXI player base.

[Preypacer]

Whether FFXIV can survive on a subscription model has nothing to do with whether it goes free-to-play. It depends on the size of the team that developed it, the persistent cost of the server infrastructure, and the size of the team that maintains it and develops new content for it.

Frankly, it will be a long time before FFXIV will be profitable for Square|Enix, no matter what its subscription base ends up being, or whether it goes F2P or not. It's an MMO that's been almost completely restarted, in addition to its initial up-front cost and ongoing server maintenance. It's also possible (maybe even likely) that FFXIV will never be profitable, and that Yoichi Wada knows this, and that 2.0 is more about saving face and repairing his company's tarnished reputation.

I believe free-to-play will result in a worsened play experience than a subscription model. Free-to-play incentivizes developers to water-down the base experience of a game in favor of the up-sold version. It creates pressure for them to contact their users as frequently as possible to try and sell them on the game's paid-for assets. This is why free-to-play games usually become pay-to-win: You've turned the game from a service to a retail outlet. It's the same difference between a fitness club and Wal*Mart. I don't want to give Square Enix an incentive to email me reminders that I haven't played recently, or to give them an incentive to make paid-for weapons of any sort better than the weapons I'll earn in-game. If you ask for the game to go free-to-play, these things will happen. That, or the quests will become for-pay, similar to Dungeons and Dragons Online. Or the player customization. Or maybe even the different zones of the world. Possibly, all of these things. Whatever it is you like most - whatever would make you pay the most - that's what Square Enix is best off barring from you until you pay real money. That's the business model you're asking them to go into. That's what you're asking them to do.

League of Legends is no exception: They operate as a retail outlet for characters and customization, with what could really only be described as a free online trial. They have almost no map or gameplay options. You find a hero you like in the random roster? Then you have to wait for them to cycle back into the roster, or you have to pay real money. And you want the latest Teemo skin? Money, money, money by the pound.

And as a game developer, myself, I tend to find the free-to-play model ethically questionable. Free-to-play games survive on what are called "whales". These are people who spend thousands - thousands - of dollars every month. I can't understand what drives these people to spend this kind of money, and I can't imagine that it represents a healthy relationship with the game. Knowing that they exist leaves me wishing never to work on a free-to-play project.

But in summation, I suppose if you'd really be happy paying nothing and doing nothing except grinding vanilla mobs in New Gridania, then I guess I can't stop you from asking for free-to-play. But please stop jumping on the free-to-play bandwagon as if it will make the game free for you without fundamentally altering your play experience. It will not.

Edit: Oh. Bother. Obviously I fell for the troll.

Whether you've fed a troll or not (and I suspect you may have), yours is a post well worth reading, so I gave ya a 'Thumbs Up' regardless. Very well said.

That said, I've also reported the OP because these threads are out of hand now. Does anyone else get the feeling like this could be some kind of organized push going on, and these aren't random posts from completely unrelated people? Not saying "it definitely is". But man, the timing of it all of a sudden... It's like they're trying to sway SE to implement it before ARR releases by creating some fake sense of "demand". So far it's been, what... 6 people in favor of, and pretty much everyone else against? Yeah, I think that sends a clear message, and it ain't a pro-F2P one.

[RexValentino]

Whether FFXIV can survive on a subscription model has nothing to do with whether it goes free-to-play. It depends on the size of the team that developed it, the persistent cost of the server infrastructure, and the size of the team that maintains it and develops new content for it.

Frankly, it will be a long time before FFXIV will be profitable for Square|Enix, no matter what its subscription base ends up being, or whether it goes F2P or not. It's an MMO that's been almost completely restarted, in addition to its initial up-front cost and ongoing server maintenance. It's also possible (maybe even likely) that FFXIV will never be profitable, and that Yoichi Wada knows this, and that 2.0 is more about saving face and repairing his company's tarnished reputation.

I believe free-to-play will result in a worsened play experience than a subscription model. Free-to-play incentivizes developers to water-down the base experience of a game in favor of the up-sold version. It creates pressure for them to contact their users as frequently as possible to try and sell them on the game's paid-for assets. This is why free-to-play games usually become pay-to-win: You've turned the game from a service to a retail outlet. It's the same difference between a fitness club and Wal*Mart. I don't want to give Square Enix an incentive to email me reminders that I haven't played recently, or to give them an incentive to make paid-for weapons of any sort better than the weapons I'll earn in-game. If you ask for the game to go free-to-play, these things will happen. That, or the quests will become for-pay, similar to Dungeons and Dragons Online. Or the player customization. Or maybe even the different zones of the world. Possibly, all of these things. Whatever it is you like most - whatever would make you pay the most - that's what Square Enix is best off barring from you until you pay real money. That's the business model you're asking them to go into. That's what you're asking them to do.

League of Legends is no exception: They operate as a retail outlet for characters and customization, with what could really only be described as a free online trial. They have almost no map or gameplay options. You find a hero you like in the random roster? Then you have to wait for them to cycle back into the roster, or you have to pay real money. And you want the latest Teemo skin? Money, money, money by the pound.

And as a game developer, myself, I tend to find the free-to-play model ethically questionable. Free-to-play games survive on what are called "whales". These are people who spend thousands - thousands - of dollars every month. I can't understand what drives these people to spend this kind of money, and I can't imagine that it represents a healthy relationship with the game. Knowing that they exist leaves me wishing never to work on a free-to-play project.

But in summation, I suppose if you'd really be happy paying nothing and doing nothing except grinding vanilla mobs in New Gridania, then I guess I can't stop you from asking for free-to-play. But please stop jumping on the free-to-play bandwagon as if it will make the game free for you without fundamentally altering your play experience. It will not.

Edit: Oh. Bother. Obviously I fell for the troll.

I enjoyed reading this post. It gave me things to think about that i never thought of before.

[fusional]

Whether FFXIV can survive on a subscription model has nothing to do with whether it goes free-to-play. It depends on the size of the team that developed it, the persistent cost of the server infrastructure, and the size of the team that maintains it and develops new content for it.

Frankly, it will be a long time before FFXIV will be profitable for Square|Enix, no matter what its subscription base ends up being, or whether it goes F2P or not. It's an MMO that's been almost completely restarted, in addition to its initial up-front cost and ongoing server maintenance. It's also possible (maybe even likely) that FFXIV will never be profitable, and that Yoichi Wada knows this, and that 2.0 is more about saving face and repairing his company's tarnished reputation.

I believe free-to-play will result in a worsened play experience than a subscription model. Free-to-play incentivizes developers to water-down the base experience of a game in favor of the up-sold version. It creates pressure for them to contact their users as frequently as possible to try and sell them on the game's paid-for assets. This is why free-to-play games usually become pay-to-win: You've turned the game from a service to a retail outlet. It's the same difference between a fitness club and Wal*Mart. I don't want to give Square Enix an incentive to email me reminders that I haven't played recently, or to give them an incentive to make paid-for weapons of any sort better than the weapons I'll earn in-game. If you ask for the game to go free-to-play, these things will happen. That, or the quests will become for-pay, similar to Dungeons and Dragons Online. Or the player customization. Or maybe even the different zones of the world. Possibly, all of these things. Whatever it is you like most - whatever would make you pay the most - that's what Square Enix is best off barring from you until you pay real money. That's the business model you're asking them to go into. That's what you're asking them to do.

League of Legends is no exception: They operate as a retail outlet for characters and customization, with what could really only be described as a free online trial. They have almost no map or gameplay options. You find a hero you like in the random roster? Then you have to wait for them to cycle back into the roster, or you have to pay real money. And you want the latest Teemo skin? Money, money, money by the pound.

And as a game developer, myself, I tend to find the free-to-play model ethically questionable. Free-to-play games survive on what are called "whales". These are people who spend thousands - thousands - of dollars every month. I can't understand what drives these people to spend this kind of money, and I can't imagine that it represents a healthy relationship with the game. Knowing that they exist leaves me wishing never to work on a free-to-play project.

But in summation, I suppose if you'd really be happy paying nothing and doing nothing except grinding vanilla mobs in New Gridania, then I guess I can't stop you from asking for free-to-play. But please stop jumping on the free-to-play bandwagon as if it will make the game free for you without fundamentally altering your play experience. It will not.

Edit: Oh. Bother. Obviously I fell for the troll.

making sure this post gets quoted again for emphasis

[Dilu_Bakari]

You guys are gonna get enough of asking for F2P...... And when it does happen watch how much F2P Characters are going to be restricted as followed: You won't be able to carry more than 2,000 gil, Inventory space 20 slots, can't make linkshells, or free companies, Can't buy a house must stay at the Inn only AND pay a fee of 1,000 gil one earth week, can't raise chocobos, you will have to rent one EVERYTIME. Anima 100? I think not you get 30 anima if you run out time to put those feet to the pavement. And then when this does come into play we gonna see how much F2P players stay around... And Most people are legacy members so WHY are you complaining about paying 9.99 a month compared to other prices of MMO's come on people be real. The company need money so they can give us the things we need..... this $h!t isn't free.