A challenge. Make Bard more Bard.

[Andrien]

*snip*

I didn't use FFXI Bard as a reference for a reason otherwise I would have put a link up on the OP. However most agree that FFXIV Bard gameplay is nearly 100% identical to an Archer, and that is what draws the disappointment. As someone before said, you play a support skill, then the majority of the time you still play like a regular Archer. That is not 50/50, its more like 90(Archer)/10(Bard)

edit:
I personally would like to hear more music for bard, and to actually see the animation of using instruments like the harp etc.

[Polive]

As someone before said, you play a support skill, then the majority of the time you still play like a regular Archer. That is not 50/50, its more like 90(Archer)/10(Bard)

The main problem is that it is hard to balance damage vs support. If the support abilities are too good, then that will be all that is expected of bards. If you still want them to do damage, then they need to have windows in their song rotation to allow for damage and weaponskills. FFXI bards never dealt any damage because their support-to-damage ratio was too high, it was way more beneficial for them to sing all day than to ever touch their daggers. If you have 6 or 7 songs to do in rotation, then there's little time or reason to ever pull out a weapon.

How do you have a job build TP and use weaponskills regularly if they have to constantly buff people all the time? The solution is to either have fewer buffs and longer buff durations, or to make the damage come out faster in between the buffs. The second option would be significantly harder to balance, since the class could then feasibly focus only on damage and outdo other damage classes. It's clear in retrospect that the team went with the first option.

The problem you seem to have here is a matter of perception. The concept and balancing issues would be exactly the same whether you are an "archer" shooting arrows with a bow or a "bard" shooting music notes with a violin. The picture at the end of the day is still: "ranged class with support abilities".

If you just want some animation swaps so that bards shoot a bunch of notes or whathaveyou that's fine. But that doesn't change the underlying mechanics and balance of "how many shots fired before you should have to buff".

[namasy]

The main problem is that it is hard to balance damage vs support. If the support abilities are too good, then that will be all that is expected of bards. If you still want them to do damage, then they need to have windows in their song rotation to allow them to deal damage and use weaponskills. FFXI bards never dealt any damage because their support to damage ratio was too high, it was way more beneficial for them to sing all day than to ever touch their daggers. If you have 6 or 7 songs to do in rotation, then there's little time to ever pull out a weapon to deal any damage.

The problem you seem to have is a matter of perception. The concept would be exactly the same whether you are an archer shooting arrows with a bow while singing songs or shooting music notes with a violin while singing songs. The picture at the end of the day is still: ranged class with support abilities.

How do you have a job build TP and use regular weaponskills if they have to constantly buff people all the time? The solution is to either have fewer buffs and longer buff duration to allow more damage time, or to make the damage come out faster in between the buffs. The second option would be significantly harder to balance, since the class could feasibly just then focus only on damage and outdo other damage classes. So therefore the team went with the first route.

If you just want some animation swaps so that bards shoot a bunch of notes or whathaveyou that's fine. But that doesn't change the underlying mechanics.

This guy know whats hes talking about. you work for SE by any chance?

[Polive]

This guy know whats hes talking about. you work for SE by any chance?

I hope that is not sarcasm. I am only trying to analyze it from a developer's point of view. I have some minor game design experience so I am basing my assumptions on that.

[Duelle]

The main problem is that it is hard to balance damage vs support. If the support abilities are too good, then that will be all that is expected of bards. If you still want them to do damage, then they need to have windows in their song rotation to allow for damage and weaponskills. FFXI bards never dealt any damage because their support-to-damage ratio was too high, it was way more beneficial for them to sing all day than to ever touch their daggers. If you have 6 or 7 songs to do in rotation, then there's little time or reason to ever pull out a weapon.

And the underlying problem in that is that such a playstyle was not popular. This in effect made the job ridiculously rare, which then had its own set of negative effects on social dynamics and linkshell political structures (read: the princess bard). So you had a job with neutered gameplay and unpopular, yet was seen as essential by linkshells to the point they would fight over said job.

If you just want some animation swaps so that bards shoot a bunch of notes or whathaveyou that's fine. But that doesn't change the underlying mechanics and balance of "how many shots fired before you should have to buff".

Well-said.

And this is what this thread is about. Make Bard look like Bard. I can't elaborate it any clearer than that.

And as has been said, Bard is already very Bard. Bards aren't just harps and flutes. They're also silk-tongued manipulators and make excellent spies. And can hold their own in a fight. Daggers, swords and bows in D&D and A Bard's Tale, a bow and arrow in FFXIV.

[Andrien]

And as has been said, Bard is already very Bard. Bards aren't just harps and flutes. They're also silk-tongued manipulators and make excellent spies. And can hold their own in a fight. Daggers, swords and bows in D&D and A Bard's Tale, a bow and arrow in FFXIV.

This isn't D&D and a A Bard's Tale
I'm not sure if you're picking up everything that is being posted in this thread..

The difference between Archer and Bard is to small, it makes the job itself insignificant and vice versa, you really cannot tell the difference until somebody start using a song. Adding some more animations, and some job specific weapons would do it wonders.

[Ingolf]

The main problem is that it is hard to balance damage vs support. If the support abilities are too good, then that will be all that is expected of bards. If you still want them to do damage, then they need to have windows in their song rotation to allow for damage and weaponskills. FFXI bards never dealt any damage because their support-to-damage ratio was too high, it was way more beneficial for them to sing all day than to ever touch their daggers. If you have 6 or 7 songs to do in rotation, then there's little time or reason to ever pull out a weapon.

This is incorrect. At 75 (+) with relevant gear you could sing off two ballads, two marches and DD or pull with ease. You could also support heal, and were required to do so. They need to manage song duration and song casting time in XIV, and there would still be plenty of time to do anything else.

Adding too many good support songs is fine, seeing as there's a cap on the amount of songs you can sing. In both XIV and XI you have dead time after you've supported. A ton of dead time.