They should put actual MMO players on the development team.

[Mijin]

I'm not basing my argument on sales data at all, I'm poking holes in your terrible analogy based on sales data.

Well you didn't really poke any holes in my argument the way I see it you just kept going "and then, and then, and then."

You can think people in charge are ignorant til the cows come home. That doesn't change the fact that playesr are considerably more ignorant.

Not so, the people in charge make single player games. At least the players play MMOrpgs.

The trouble with your argument that SE should "employ 'Professional' gamers to play the game to tell them how to improve it" is that all their information would be the product of those handful of players' personal biases and desires. I'd rather trust market research and the few requests and bits of information that get back to SE from the forums, over a handful of sweaty nerds that just get to hand over a wish list and have a globally distributed game tailored to their own venal wants.

Well I can't really tell if you're taking what I said out of context on purpose or just have that hard of a time understanding.
I said when a new idea comes down the pipeline they should check with a group of consultants who actually play the game to see if there is anyway to improve on it. I said nothing even remotely close to what you're suggesting.

Basically... I'm beginning to think this thread was just a failed attempt to apply for a job that you want SE to make for you... Am I too far off the mark?

Don't patronize me. First of it should be blatantly obvious that isn't the case in lieu of the fact I was talking about this hypothetical panel of players in a very derogatory fashion. I would never be naive enough to believe that would be a way to get a job or naive enough to even believe that any information on this forum gets forwarded to them for that matter.
Also I don't speak a word of Japanese which I think would fundamental for the proposed task... Not to mention I already have a job, and commitments where I live and wouldn't relocate unless I absolutely had to do so. Unless ignorant enough to believe that was really mt goal, I beginning to become positive what you're doing is a failed attempt at trolling? I wont bother to ask how close to the mark I am because I've already made up my mind.

Every time you post it gets dryer and dryer though. I've seen my sisters 14 year old kid troll harder, literally.

[Alderton]

They don't test if the game will be enjoyable or profitable. Further confirmation on the subject can be obtained via google or here.

No, QA will not test things to see if they are fun, but there are generally QA in-house that work closely to the developers.

Depending on the company, you'll likely have a design department that implements a lot of the assets and tries to build an experience for the end user. Other places you'll have a gameplay programmer. I'll stick with the term designer, because it's easier to type.

The designer will be focused on making the content FUN. They will iterate over the content, tweaking this and changing that, to make the content as fun as they can. The department will usually play test content and give feedback to each other, as well as other departments chiming in and giving feedback or direction (usually from production). Sometimes, even QA are asked for their opinions, as they see a lot of the game and are experienced in playing through it.

Development isn't one guy, locked in a room, making his portion of the game without any other eyes on it. It is a collaborative effort among many people. And even if you did have a few extra people playing through it, that isn't going to change a whole lot.

We can then take into account the fact that "fun" is subjective. You'll never please everyone.

Just like you had to do in the PLD/DRG thread, I'd highly suggest taking the word of those who know more about the subject than yourself and accept that this is not a good idea, and does nothing to help.

[Alderton]

So you don't think the QA team who tests everything we do somehow has never had a single foot in the MMO genre? You know because SE has MULTIPLE MMO's under it's belt it must never hire people to test their MMO's. It's not like FFXI was tightly balanced for several years or anything either.

Your right we must somehow take a small quip from Yoshida as to somehow mean everyone on his team is utterly useless and unaware of what a MMO even is.



I assume this is what your pointing at. The part where he sais he asked team members who are not clear on MMO concepts, where in this does it state a majority of any percentage of the team?

Also, this. I brought it up a few pages ago, but it was likely ignored/missed. I think a large part of this stems from the fact that you simply misunderstood the statement given in the interview and over-exaggerated the situation.

And keeping in line with the sub-topic of this thread, you misspelled, "says".

[Jynx]

keeping wit teh submarine topik. I dun cayer.

[Mijin]

Just like you had to do in the PLD/DRG thread, I'd highly suggest taking the word of those who know more about the subject than yourself and accept that this is not a good idea, and does nothing to help.

I have yet to see anyone who has proven that this is a bad idea, or anyone who seems more informed on the subject than me. Contrary to a lot of the silly stuff that's being mentioned here, I actually spent a lot of time thinking about it. If not this than something needs to be done to improve player feedback. Wow does beta tests every content update... that would cost more than is in this games budget right now to implement. IF this game does nothing to improve its customer feedback it will be left behind. If you have any better ideas I'm all ears. If your just going to keep telling me there is no problem I'm not interested.

[Pandastirfry]

Well you didn't really poke any holes in my argument the way I see it you just kept going "and then, and then, and then."

Well, if you're determined to not understand how buisnesses work than I guess I can't drill it into your head

Well I can't really tell if you're taking what I said out of context on purpose or just have that hard of a time understanding.
I said when a new idea comes down the pipeline they should check with a group of consultants who actually play the game to see if there is anyway to improve on it. I said nothing even remotely close to what you're suggesting.

If they are not going to act on their "suggestions for improvement" then why the hell employ them at all... I don't think you even know what you want anymore. Again, these "consultants" could only give subjective, biased information that would be of little to no use.


sorry to break it to you, but no one is trolling here, I was only hazarding a guess as to why someone would suggest that a game company should employ "professional" gamers (that still makes me laugh) when their internal testing and QA teams already do the job that these "consultants" would presumably do.

[Alderton]

Contrary to a lot of the silly stuff that's being mentioned here, I actually spent a lot of time thinking about it.

Explain, in detail, how this would work. We'll start there. Your OP describes that you think people who have played MMOs for a long time should give feedback, but that's really the extent of the idea that I've seen.

EDIT: and more informed on what subject than you?

[Mijin]

Also, this. I brought it up a few pages ago, but it was likely ignored/missed. I think a large part of this stems from the fact that you simply misunderstood the statement given in the interview and over-exaggerated the situation.

And keeping in line with the sub-topic of this thread, you misspelled, "says".

I had to do some digging for this one but here it is:

Whom do you think makes Barbie games? It isn't young girls, even though they play them the most.

At first I thought I had something with the hyphen you put in over-exaggerated, but I googled it to double check and I guess it isn't correct. I never knew.

You can easily win if you try hard enough now, I stopped caring when I thought all of you guys had gone to bed. I was tired myself so I figured by bother. Guess I gave up on the game too soon.

[Mijin]

Well, if you're determined to not understand how buisnesses work than I guess I can't drill it into your head

I don't consider you an expert. You aren't in the position to teach me anything. You're just some angry woman(presumably) on the internet. I don't even know if you're an adult. It's not like anything you've said has been constructive, everything you've posted to me has been facetious, and used to attack me passive-aggressively. Why would I take anything you say seriously?

If they are not going to act on their "suggestions for improvement" then why the hell employ them at all... I don't think you even know what you want anymore. Again, these "consultants" could only give subjective, biased information that would be of little to no use.

No. You give subjective, and biased information that is of no use...

sorry to break it to you, but no one is trolling here, I was only hazarding a guess as to why someone would suggest that a game company should employ "professional" gamers (that still makes me laugh) when their internal testing and QA teams already do the job that these "consultants" would presumably do.

Well I'm sorry to also be the bearer of bad news, but you know how you're intentionally posting inflammatory remarks to bait me into responding so you can do it some more? That be Trollin'

It's also been mentioned... oh... idk... like 50 times now that the QA team has nothing to to with making sure the game is enjoyable and will sell well... they test for bugs etc.

I'm glad that the term "Professional Gamer" brought you a smile. It saddens me that I cannot take credit for the phrase however. At least you had a laugh, I find every one of your posts to be humorous, I would feel guilty if I didn't give a little something back.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

I see your point but... developers have many tasks other then sitting at a desk and say "ok, let's put in game this and this". They review costs, they guide teams, and notherless they need advanced skill in programming, all things a random MMO player don't have. Leave feedback to the players, developing a game isn't part of the fun