Dear Paladins...

[Aceofspades]

basicly I am strait up telling you that your flat out wrong. FACT, deal with it.

[GreyJorildyn]

And I am straight up telling you you're an idiot now.

You asked for "proof", and now you have it. ALL the methodology for how the tests were done are linked where I gave you. You still say I am wrong. You still choose to be ignorant when all the actual facts (hint: a fact is something that is true, not necessarily something you personally believe) are presented to you. You know what? You're hopeless. Enjoy gimping up Sarganatas. Just please stop helping to gimp upcoming Paladins with your nonsense. That's all I am asking!

[Aceofspades]

And I am straight up telling you you're an idiot now.

You asked for "proof", and now you have it. ALL the methodology for how the tests were done are linked where I gave you. You still say I am wrong. You still choose to be ignorant when all the actual facts (hint: a fact is something that is true, not necessarily something you personally believe) are presented to you. You know what? You're hopeless. Enjoy gimping up Sarganatas. Just please stop helping to gimp upcoming Paladins with your nonsense. That's all I am asking!

WOW , you are realy ignorant. Charts without raw data, and the scientific processes in wich said data was gathered, are worthless. You call that evidance, and you still cant accept the fact that I can take 30%+ less damage then you any day of the week on ANY mob, like i said, I am down for any challange, hell fraps it if you want. You say I am gimping upcoming plds yet your telling them "def is worthless" . Either your a troll or just ignorant. still waiting for the program in wich a valid number value was scored per action used....

[Aceofspades]

I have seen the charts , but what i have never seen is the raw data, as far as the numbers you got for enmity, question 1 is on what job, voke on war is gona be stronger then pld and same can be said for flash on pld over war, second question is what program was used to accuratly guage these numbers, simply posting numbers and saying "heres your proof" is pointless. if that was the case then i could say

provoke = 3 hate

flash = 300 hate

and that would be suffice to prove your chart up there wrong, not saying its inaccurate, yet, but I would love to know what program was used to determin those numbers or if this guy is simply pulling numbers outa his ass because thats what he thinks each voke is worth....

also, if this was done prior to jobs, and judging by the fact that there are no jobs listed, i would guess it was. If it was done prior to jobs then , I would have to say that voke prolly did have a strong hate pull because you could equip mrds traits as well as their abilities. soo either way you proved nothing other then when faced with looking like an idiot you get desprate and post any nonsense hoping the oposition dosent know anybetter.

Again as for your hp vs def charts, you can post charts all day brother , they mean = squat, when i was tested by a pld who stacks hp , and has triple teir 4 melds on almost all their gear, they openly admited i took roughly 250 damage less per hit. they usually get hit for over 600, that, my friend, is over 30% damage mitigation, this I can prove/ simply meet me anywhere , in any fight and I will prove it, raw , unaltered, unbiased data.

still waiting for a valid response to this post

[Aceofspades]

"I did finally manage to get Ace to show me how he does in an instance, and I tried to use an unbiased judgement as best I could even though I am strongly in favor of HP and strongly against Def/Vit.

The stipulation set forth was that we were to fully PuG the group so we had whm's that were unfamiliar with our tanking styles as well as unaware of when burst damage would come, so they were slow on pre-loading a cura. We did CC, 1 strong/physical heavy fight (princess) and 1 Magical intensive fight (chimera). We also agreed to not use food or potions so that this would be purely testing skill/gear. I played the role of a DD to stress his enmity while he obviously tanked.

On Princess his build was strong, being a pure physical fight. Regen kept him up at all times, he did not use sentinel regularly, used rampart on cd, and used stoneskin on cd. On an unmitigated hit (only had protect up) he took roughly 200 dmg from princess, however I was unable to see how much her ws did. Many times throughout the encounter the whm's would aoe, being that we were a pug many couldn't time/save their aoe's for the adds. 1 draw back from the nature of Vit stacking, his hp was lower than I like, so his threat was a bit on the low side, Spirits Within wasn't hitting hard enough. With me as a knowledgeable DD for the encounter, I know what to do when and as such I had to hold back for fear of pulling Princess (red the whole fight until about 30% hp left on princess where I danced red/yellow).

Chimera was the complete opposite unfortunately. We did have a trigger happy DD who pulled chimera off the bat, so I did try to look past this. Positioning was off, but again a trigger happy DD, and the PuG went with what i call the split group setup, whm's a touch closer than the DD's. This may have been decided due to the positioning issue, but let me get to the juicy part. Things appeared to be going smoothly, DD were doing what they were suppose to, Whm's seem to have a handle on things, Ace seemed to have decent threat. First breath, Breath of the Ram, hit Ace like a truck and brought him close to 500 hp left or less. Again due to the nature of this group, the whm's were unprepared for this, and Ace did not dodge it for reasons i know not, be it lag, laziness, or animation lock. The next hit killed Ace, and 2 Cura's failed to go off, my assumption is Unable to cast on KO target.

While Ace's build is strong on a purely physical fight, it needs coordination with whm's and some level of skill throughout the party, not ideal for pug's in the least. HP provides that cushion to keep things from going crazy fast, and enmity via Spirits Within however provides 0 mitigation benefits and rely's more heavily on the pld's skill to time cd's/dodge ws's/whm's able to cure bomb.

tl:dr Def/Vit provides excellent mitigation for physical only fights, HP provides cushion and enmity. Pick your poison or mix and match.

This is purely for the sake of Def/Vit vs HP "


sorry I am not as proficient with the forums but this is a copy pasted post from a player who wanted to test the theory. after the fight he said I too roughly 250 damage less then him on avg where the avg hit on him was 600+. granted this was all physical but it was on a boss mob, most certainly over 10 lvls then my lvl 50.

[GreyJorildyn]

You might take less damage per hit, but I guarantee you take more total damage since the rest of your party has to gimp themselves so you can keep hate. Your fights probably drag on longer than they should. That's evident in your admittance to not having a group to even do speed runs. All your advice is just bad. I mean come on, you started this thread by suggesting that any GOOD tank DOESN'T NEED provoke to hold hate. Fact is any GOOD tank is running with decent players which make him/her require Provoke on their bar. You don't listen to yourself when you post I think.

I don't need to prove anything. If you want to look at the scientific method behind the tests, I've already given you enough links to find it. You want to be ignorant about it because you're only good enough to get crafted gear with melds on it. And I'd be ok with that except you then choose to comment on how PLDs should gear end game based on your personal experiences which are clearly limited to running with PUGs. That's like the smartest kid in algebra teaching the class for a whole year. What I am saying is that you have yet to really experience what difficult raiding is like because you are not challenged by anyone but yourself (mentally that is). As a result, you're in no position to be teaching new players anything, and up until now all you've provided is mostly shallow and uninformed guidance.

[Aceofspades]

You might take less damage per hit, but I guarantee you take more total damage since the rest of your party has to gimp themselves so you can keep hate. Your fights probably drag on longer than they should. That's evident in your admittance to not having a group to even do speed runs. All your advice is just bad. I mean come on, you started this thread by suggesting that any GOOD tank DOESN'T NEED provoke to hold hate. Fact is any GOOD tank is running with decent players which make him/her require Provoke on their bar. You don't listen to yourself when you post I think.

I don't need to prove anything. If you want to look at the scientific method behind the tests, I've already given you enough links to find it. You want to be ignorant about it because you're only good enough to get crafted gear with melds on it. And I'd be ok with that except you then choose to comment on how PLDs should gear end game based on your personal experiences which are clearly limited to running with PUGs. That's like the smartest kid in algebra teaching the class for a whole year. What I am saying is that you have yet to really experience what difficult raiding is like because you are not challenged by anyone but yourself (mentally that is).

thats funny, was a little upset now I am just laughing, your an idiot. soo basicly your saying you CANT back your charts and graphs. Yeah, your right, my dds are holding back thats why we arent getting speed kills. Only problem with your theory is if it was correct, I wouldnt be able to hold back on provoke and keep hate.... your and idiot. lmfao, Im in tears , this is soo funny. Ok mate, I will stop, now you got me feeling like a troll. you stack that HP like a big dummy, and go tell all those noobs to do the same, I realy dont care. fact is I can overide anything you have to say simply by showing people how my tank performs over the opostion. Hate control is not an issue for me much less staying alive. Even tho I know you wish I would stop posting that , you have yet to prove anything and all I have to do is show anyone who wishes to challange my claims and thats all it would take.

[GreyJorildyn]

At first I thought you were a troll, but then I realized you were being serious...

I am done speaking with you.

For everyone else, go read what all the rational people had to say in Tachi's guide. It's a good one for sure

[Aceofspades]

I have nothing to gain by posting false information. Only reason I still post what I know about tanking , is because people were on here posting that "HP was the #1 tank stat" after I replied by basicly calling those players ignorant, I became public enemy number one. I honestly do not care lol. Fact is I have nothing to gain by posting what I know about tanking. If you wish for me to stop then you have two options:

1) Get SE to declair that DEF is broken and dose not work
2) Prove your claims are true , with raw data, not charts built off of players intuition

[Chardrizard]

I dont think anybody oppose or saying def is worthless, find a quote from anyone that says that, people just dont want new PLDs that really do want to immerse themself in accomplishing endgame to listen to you bc while yes that DEF/turtle build has its uses, it is not doing it job well and very non optimal when it comes to accomplishing speedruns which is pretty much what everyone is after.

Taking less damage has no use if it means DPS has to hold back because prolonging fight just makes the fight more dangerous.

I am also not here to say def is worthless, but i will here to say to Ace that you are burden to a party and probably the cause of terrible boss runs.