So, when is VPR getting nerfs? (Frontline)

[ChrysOCE]

Because 3rd party tools exist. So many of them use those to afk and let it play alone for them. Most have tools to instantly guard against machinist LB, against WHM Lb (specially since it doesn't insta stun you anymore which actually made square enix help plugins a lot), machinist snipe, bard silence snipes, dancers that aren't stun-locked during first second of their LB but can walk freely and much more. Oh and back when teleport bug was a thing and you'd see many people teleport back to their base in an instant second whenever they were about to die which made them invulnerable to ever dying. Although this teleporting thing still happens in CC from recent videos.

The machinist LB.. i dunno. Its a pretty long windup to actually get your LB off. If your LB damage went through the moment you pressed LB and the animation was just the animation, that would be better. But square wants the damge to resole on animation, right? If the damage doesnt happen till after the crosshairs are on the target for a couple seconds then yea, like there is time to shield.
To me, it would make far far more sense for you to not know you are going to be MCH LB. its a one target, one shot LB. its supposed to be a snipe out of nowhere. Like, fine if you can hear the sound of it, through battle. But the actual target animation, no. So you dont know who is being targeted.

[ThreeBeastSmile]

I don't think people here even realize why Viper needs a nerf. When it first came out, it was way too strong in CC that it got nerfed pretty much as soon as next patch came. It just had too much HP stealing / lifesteal thing that made it unkillable. Also it made issues in lower ranks because Viper by far is one if not the strongest class to play in bronze-gold as everybody will stand under you and focus you. That is free damage + heal and you take everything for your team. They realized that and they nerfed it.

When did that happen? Iirc VPR was in NU tier at release (idk why, that was the funnest version of it for me, even if it was preliminary) that was then continuously fussed about because of the usual balancing parameters the devs use, usage rates, dictated that it needed to be "fixed".

It was only... Q3(?) last year they got a random overblown buff to 100% leech on Backlash that made it absolutely ridiculous, everywhere, ridiculous, but that version of the job didn't last long. Like, that was proper broken then, and yeah it got bashed pretty hard until it got reverted.

Now it continues to be an offender of some respects but it's largely relegated to FL. In CC it's not a big deal so I guess that's why it's not budging very fast.

I wish the devs would stop bloody basing tweaks on usage rates in CC though... like, VPR is fine in CC, has largely been fine for most of the time, maybe... MAYBE just play the job first and then make tweaks. Maybe it's just that it's boooooriiiiing rather than its relative effectiveness levels that keeps popularity down.

I believe there's a video somewhere on YT, "Game Balance Isn't Real" that covers player biases as well. Too much intel is acquired from mere hearsay on their parts too, without doing their own private homework.

[Scintilla]

You have 2 times to stand still in defensive stance which is already 2 times big heals. Duo that with role actions and you get an unstoppable machine that causes havoc in FL games.

All of the VPRs in my first FL game of the evening (and probably most VPR-heavy game of the evening):



Looking for that 'havoc' they're supposedly wreaking

Let's take a look at Samurai as well. Why all of a sudden Samurai receives buffs where it has lifesteal on many abilities now? Including that it works even if the damage is mitigated, it still gets healed??? Do you realize the issue here?

The more lifesteal they get, the less times they use recuperate and harder to kill.

A good thing considering they're using all of their MP on Purify to do the job that 99% of the playerbase won't do: tank.

And also, a lot of SAMs skills either have an initial skill use to 'unlock' the actual damage skill or has a cast timer. Not to mention the lack of decent ranged AoEs. Pretty unforgiving for a melee class where an enemy alliance is flooded with ranged and casters.

Obnoxious class that deserves nerfs. With battle high before, at least after it dies it resets BH a bit. Now it's over. Once it gets up, its gg wp. People here need to realize that if certain jobs are super popular in FL, it means something you know, like a meta. Too many Viper and GNB players are currently in FL and for a reason. Just jump into entire enemy team, laugh at them as they try to do something, don't get punished but entire team gets punished for focusing you. How is that a balanced gameplay or "skill" ?

There's a lot of VPRs around at the moment, I'd agree. But purely because they listen to drivel that the class is mindless and seem to think that they'll go out there and grab themselves 20+ kills and 7m damage. As shown in the screenshot, they quickly find out that isn't the case.

Personally, I suggest everyone should try a class themselves before seeking to condemn said class in such a way.

When me as GNB can activate role action rampant, nebula, heart, jump into enemy team, use my LB and get 95%+ damage reduction all while I'm dealing insane damage to them and 24 people focusing me but they deal 200-500 HP damage. Is that called "skilled player" ? It just rewards me for rushing into someone without thinking if I'm going to die or not.

We'll have to take your word for it that you're dealing 'insane' damage. In such cases, it's entirely the enemies own fault. They would have many opportunities to counter you - while you're dancing around in LB, despite your defence buffs, you're vulnerable to whatever cc, kbs, or LBs they wish to throw at you. If they aren't doing that, that's their own fault.

Edit: Also the fact that you cannot silence, stop or pushback Viper in defensive stance is also a toxic behavior.

Quick tip: you can!

Again, it just requires using your silences, stuns, and knockbacks at the right time. If you're spamming them mindlessly, that's your own problem

[MisterNublet]

I am aware of a couple 3rd party tools. None of which allow for automatic ability usage against someone else's use of an ability, I am pretty sure. Either its around your own burst and mitigations or its modifying your speed/location.

If you ever played CC when it was first released, the earliest iteration of the script (that would trigger on someone else's ability use) would cast WHM's Miracle of Nature whenever the Samurai used their LB, stunning them and wasting their LB.

Since then, the script(s) has only improved, adding other job's CC, such as BRD's silence/KB, MNK's KB, MCH's KB, SMN's stun, and more. It'll also auto cast Recuperate for you when your health reaches a certain percentage, auto cast Guard for things like MCH's LB (though its easy to block anyway, now it is just one less thing to think about). It'll also target/cast NIN's LB as soon as someone's hp nearby drops below 50%, though very risky to use in FLs, it is used a lot in CC. Reaper and Dancer LB when certain jobs use dash in their vicinity, even if it makes zero sense to use the LB.

Of course, these people are not as obvious as Eli Blue with their cheating, so its difficult to notice unless you know what you're looking for, or their usage makes zero sense. Like popping Reaper LB against a solo DRK that's standing next to their spawn because he used plunge.

[Divinemights]

Edit: Also the fact that you cannot silence, stop or pushback Viper in defensive stance is also a toxic behavior.

Your argument contains several logical and consistency issues
First, you mix CC and FL when evaluating balance.
A job being adjusted or nerfed in CC does not automatically imply it is overpowered in Frontline, and vice versa.
You shifts repeatedly between CC and FL while discussing Viper’s Frontline performance, which makes the reasoning appear selective.
In practice, Viper is not widely regarded as a dominant problem in CC, which further weakens the idea that CC-era nerfs or perceptions can be used as evidence for current FL imbalance.

Second, the claim that Viper was “nerfed pretty much as soon as the next patch came” does not by itself prove it was overpowered.
Early or rapid adjustments often reflect tuning, mode specific issues, or design iteration rather than confirmed long term imbalance.
Especially Viper is a brand new job from 7.0
This is a false causation assumption.

Third, lifesteal is not equivalent to invulnerability.
In Frontline, actions with lifesteal and Recuperate exist largely because melee jobs must survive extremely high burst damage and layered AoE pressure from ranged jobs.
Both Viper and Samurai rely on sustain to function in that environment, especially given the long standing strength of ranged AoE and crowd control in large scale fights.
Without sufficient sustain, melee jobs would be deleted before they can meaningfully engage.

Finally, the claim that “standing in defensive stance twice equals two big heals” is unclear and not mechanically correct.
If Viper is ignored during Snake Scale, there is no real damage output nor heal.
Learn to switch target please.

[TofuLove]

Yes, VPR will probably get toned down eventually and I agree with that.

And that's all i am after. 5/10% nerfs. Any more than that would be weird.
Glad we agree.

p.s. nerf bravery

[NiaTa]

I had to check official forums that I was not in fact not insane and that vipers act essentially as tanks no.5 in frontlines now. Glad to see others are seeing it similarly, at least to some degree. Please, nerf them a little. The game gets a lot of less fun if a horde of gunbreakers, paladins, dark knights and vipers are on me the second I step out of my base. Dealing with a dark knight + dancer combo is bad enough, this is even less fun.

[Divinemights]

I had to check official forums that I was not in fact not insane and that vipers act essentially as tanks no.5 in frontlines now. Glad to see others are seeing it similarly, at least to some degree. Please, nerf them a little. The game gets a lot of less fun if a horde of gunbreakers, paladins, dark knights and vipers are on me the second I step out of my base. Dealing with a dark knight + dancer combo is bad enough, this is even less fun.

It seems like the idea of “fun” some people have is just being able to easily delete groups of players with AoE splash damage.
Well, that era is over

[Ankhira]

It seems like the idea of “fun” some people have is just being able to easily delete groups of players with AoE splash damage.
Well, that era is over

Edited my post cause I came off too rude.

I’m not sure why you keep projecting arguments nobody here is making. Most of the people in this thread are not asking for a ranged meta, no one is asking to gut melee, and no one is asking for one role to dominate. People are simply saying that VPR and/or Bravery/Bloodbath feels overtuned in Frontlines right now.

You’re arguing against positions that don’t exist. It’s like you’re fighting ghosts instead of responding to what people are actually saying. If you look at the thread, there aren’t even that many complaints about every melee job, just VPR and what makes it feel unfun to fight against them. That’s it. Nobody is calling for melee to be deleted from the game.

What gets tiring is when feedback gets dismissed with you’re just bad or you want a braindead ranged meta. That’s not discussion, that’s just shutting people down. This isn’t CC where individual skill expression is the focus it’s Frontlines, which plays completely different from CC due to role actions and BH. And some jobs are performing better than others in FL compared to CC.

We're not even asking for VPR to be deleted. 5-10% nerf would be plenty. Or even just a nerf to Bloodbath/Bravery.

Anyway, I’ve said my piece. If the only response to someone disliking VPR is to imply they’re bad or want the game to be easier, then there’s not much point in continuing. I came here to give feedback, not trade condescension.

We can agree, disagree, explain why, and move on it doesn’t need to turn into hidden personal jabs every time. But guess that's these forums.

[Scintilla]

I had to check official forums that I was not in fact not insane and that vipers act essentially as tanks no.5 in frontlines now. Glad to see others are seeing it similarly, at least to some degree. Please, nerf them a little. The game gets a lot of less fun if a horde of gunbreakers, paladins, dark knights and vipers are on me the second I step out of my base. Dealing with a dark knight + dancer combo is bad enough, this is even less fun.

All of the classes you've listed there as disliking are tanks - with the exception of VPR which, true, is a DPS that acts like a tank.

Forgive me but tanks are supposed to... tank? Their role and purpose is to lead a push, using their stronger defence to protect while their team burst. In that scenario, the tank is doing it's job. How would you like them to play? Back at a distance just throwing a single ranged skill over and over again?

The question is where are your tanks to protect you? And how have the enemy managed to push so far with an alliance of ranged/casters to throw huge damage and cc at them?

The answer is generally:
You have no/few tanks because it's a generally avoided role by casuals. As such, it becomes an alliance of ranged/casters endlessly retreating to avoid being frontline. This also means they're spending more time running and less time throwing the damage and ccs which would've stopped the enemy tanks getting in in the first place.

But, hey, let's just blame it on tanks being overpowered and needing a nerf (I would be baffled by anyone attempting to claim DRK is overpowered in FL at the moment), because why consider it being anything else?