Picto painting potency should be readjusted

[Kishin12345]

Those are a good example of why Savages apparently don't truly matter for balancing though. The changes arrived as the tier just became outdated. If M6S had meaningful impact on class balance, they'd have hotfixed them in 2-3 days after deploying the tier.

Smn buffs came 2 or 3 weeks after savage release after it was clear that smn is too weak for this tier. Rdm and gnb changes were made FOR this tier because of the mechanics that are in the savage fights. With 7.4 ninja got a few aoe buffs for example. Think it was fire and frog potency so it is a gain on 2 targets. M10s is a 2 targets fight, so i would say it was made for this fight in specific.
Also i've never seen them "fix" anything within 2 to 3 days, it always takes them longer. Even the P8s nerf back in EW took them at least 2 weeks to make. They wait until the results become clearer and then they intervene.

Edit: And i know that m10 is a 2 target fight in normal version, too
But normal raids dont matter, normal trials dont matter, dungeons dont matter. There is no enrage, you are not fighting a timer. The fights loop endlessly there and you can still kill by doing only auto attacks for 90 minutes. There is no pressure for you to do optimal dps or keep your rotations aligned and sync your buffs. So it doesnt really matter if the jobs are functional for that type of content. It only starts to matter when the pressure of enrage timers gets added and the chance to fail is there.

[Sarantserel]

I'd disagree that the RDM changes were for this tier. The one fight where the extended range on the melee combo feels useful in this entire tier is M12S p2 and even then its only if you have certain patterns and I think it'd be possible to play around those mechanics.

These change feel way more like a response to Cruiserweight and to make RDM more in line with other casters as a precaution for the future. Unlike this tier where you can mostly manage to stay in range for your combo, Cruiserweight had 2 fights where being a RDM in a caster spot was heavily penalized: M6S, where ranged players were cut from melee range for a full minute during the lava phase, and M7S, where casters had to be tied to the wall far away from melee range for a good portion of P2 and for the second burst of P3.

[Kishin12345]

I'd disagree that the RDM changes were for this tier. The one fight where the extended range on the melee combo feels useful in this entire tier is M12S p2 and even then its only if you have certain patterns and I think it'd be possible to play around those mechanics.

These change feel way more like a response to Cruiserweight and to make RDM more in line with other casters as a precaution for the future. Unlike this tier where you can mostly manage to stay in range for your combo, Cruiserweight had 2 fights where being a RDM in a caster spot was heavily penalized: M6S, where ranged players were cut from melee range for a full minute during the lava phase, and M7S, where casters had to be tied to the wall far away from melee range for a good portion of P2 and for the second burst of P3.

Valid argument.
Still the changes were made because of savage mechanics, so just further proves my point that they balance around ultimate and savage.
And i think in their explanation they even mention the changes were meant to be a precaution for future fights or something like that.
And it was possible to adjust around for a rdm in m7s, but no standard pf following a guide would ever do this. They want to go in, get loot, get out.

[Carstien]

As much fun as you think this would be, you have to actually consider what it would mean. Look at M10S right now...PCT is extremely powerful to the point of being a good 1000 dps over most of the other jobs and 600 over the closest competitor and it's not about the aoe, it's about the downtime. The downtime which lets them paint.

On most fights, increasing painting potencies would be a good thing but because PCT takes advantage of downtime so well it would increase the problem by a lot and in the coming ultimate, most of which seem to have many instances of forced downtime, or more fights like M10S where the boss goes away long enough to paint, it becomes a huge problem. It would be better to reduce the potency of painting but make painting either faster, or give it a potency when it finishes such as a flick of the brush, splashing the enemy with leftover paint and splitting the potency between that attack and the painting itself. For the flavour, the job needs the paintings, but they are a problem because of how they work.

[Bubert]

Picto already got nerfed and not in a good way so can we leave it as it is?

[Supersnow845]

As much fun as you think this would be, you have to actually consider what it would mean. Look at M10S right now...PCT is extremely powerful to the point of being a good 1000 dps over most of the other jobs and 600 over the closest competitor and it's not about the aoe, it's about the downtime. The downtime which lets them paint.

On most fights, increasing painting potencies would be a good thing but because PCT takes advantage of downtime so well it would increase the problem by a lot and in the coming ultimate, most of which seem to have many instances of forced downtime, or more fights like M10S where the boss goes away long enough to paint, it becomes a huge problem. It would be better to reduce the potency of painting but make painting either faster, or give it a potency when it finishes such as a flick of the brush, splashing the enemy with leftover paint and splitting the potency between that attack and the painting itself. For the flavour, the job needs the paintings, but they are a problem because of how they work.

And PCT is also losing to red mage in half the other fights. I’m not sure why 10 should be people’s only example “oh we can’t do anything it’ll make it too strong in 10” when it’s arguably too weak everywhere else

Shouldn’t that be the point, classes have niches and overperform when given their niche

[Kishin12345]

The norm is 8man solo target full uptime fights and all jobs should be balanced for that.

If picto is only good in 10% of fights then it becomes a job no one wants to main.
Even for m10 you're probably still better off bringing rdm over picto because of clutch verraise recoveries.
They definitely need to look into picto and buff it in a way that keeps it ballanced for downtime fights, too

Lowering cast times of the paintings so that it only takes 1.5s would be a solution which makes it a tiny bit better for uptime fights, but in turn it would lose some of its identity.
Making paintings dh crit would stabilize the damage profile so crit variance isnt so high, but that would just be a bandaid fix.
Making painting only available while you have a target (because the boss inspires you to paint or whatever) would solve the issue once and for all, but that would be a very unpopular solution.

Leaving picto the way it is right now, just makes it a mediocre undesirable job to play because it is just the 3rd choice. Blm and Rdm are just better choices.
I really liked that picto could replace the 2nd melee in a standard comp. Now only blm provides enough damage to enable double caster comps.

[AmiableApkallu]

The norm is 8man solo target full uptime fights and all jobs should be balanced for that.

(emphasis mine)

My own hot-take is that every job should be viable in every encounter, but every job need not have an equally-good answer to every mechanic.

If in encounter X, WHM has a superb answer to mechanic A, but is useless on mechanic B, that's okay.

If in encounter X, WHM is simply useless across the entire fight… I feel like that's less okay. Everyone can play all jobs on a single character, but maybe some people have a preference for some jobs over others, whatever the reason?

[Aco505]

As much fun as you think this would be, you have to actually consider what it would mean. Look at M10S right now...PCT is extremely powerful to the point of being a good 1000 dps over most of the other jobs and 600 over the closest competitor and it's not about the aoe, it's about the downtime. The downtime which lets them paint.

PCT's strength in M10S is not due to downtime but mainly because their 2-target cleave is quite good. The brothers only go away for a small moment just before the 3-minute mark when they use their ultimate attack.

[jd2408]

If you want to talk about numbers. Picto is losing to blm (the job it is supposed to be competing with dps wise) in every fight except 10s and 12s p1 by 1k to upward of nearly 2k rdps (looking at you Tyrant and Lindwurm 2). I think people will start screaming if Mnk is that far behind Sam in any encouter. Speaking which, I do think the gap between Mnk and Sam is where Picto and blm should be. Currently, There is very few reasons to go picto over blm or even rdm. You have to put in so much more effort to play picto compared to blm, and your rotation offers significantly less freedom than both Rdm and Blm. Contrary to popular belief, Picto as a job is extremely restrictive in its rotation at a high level of play. The job becomes even more restrictive if you engage with its core optimization tool which is called magenta skipping. The tldr is that it basically took out all your movement tools such as hammer and comet in black since they are used to stall out your aetherhue timer. The job is frankly speaking quite reminiscent of EW BLM. Except that with EW BLM if you do none-standard stuff right, you are rewarded for being among the best dps in the game, while with picto, you don't even get close on 3 out of the 5 savage fights and even get beat by rdm. It's just a lot of efforts for picto to compete for 2nd (and at times 3rd) place. I don't even think it's going to be that great in the next Ultimate unless the whole fight is a 2 target fight. I genuinely think blm will just be as good if there is a trio phase, and I can see mnk beating it as well. but I could be wrong.