Be Patient Learning Dark Knight It's fun and rewarding.

[Rithy255]

I feel like the easiest solution to this is just to push Oblation down to that level range and make the you get the 2nd charge at lv 82.

Dunno why we can't just have TBN at around 50-60 considering Warrior gets their short CD then. I don't think having TBN on early levels would exactly break the game.

Oblation works I suppose its just a very bland skill comparatively

[Terhix]

Dunno why we can't just have TBN at around 50-60 considering Warrior gets their short CD then. I don't think having TBN on early levels would exactly break the game.

Oblation works I suppose its just a very bland skill comparatively

Warrior is once again throwing everyone's perception of tank balance in dungeons out of the window. I found dungeons on PLD absolutely miserable at low levels: your magic combo doesn't heal you, your base combo doesn't heal you, Sheltron is weak. The whole job is carried by Clemency until the kit starts functioning mid-80s, and pressing Clemency when you have a Glare spamming hero behind you feels horrible.

DRK got buffed very recently with Abyssal Drain now being an extremely strong button in dungeons and Dark Mind now being usable on trash, it absolutely doesn't lack in tanking tools. Once you get TBN in the 70-81 level bracket DRK is more durable than GNB or PLD, putting TBN at level 50-60 would make those tanks feel abysmal by comparison.

[Rithy255]

Admitting to yourself is the first step of solving a problem.

What should I admit to myself, that they shouldn't balance because of old stormblood job quests says no?

Warrior is once again throwing everyone's perception of tank balance in dungeons out of the window. I found dungeons on PLD absolutely miserable at low levels: your magic combo doesn't heal you, your base combo doesn't heal you, Sheltron is weak. The whole job is carried by Clemency until the kit starts functioning mid-80s, and pressing Clemency when you have a Glare spamming hero behind you feels horrible.

DRK got buffed very recently with Abyssal Drain now being an extremely strong button in dungeons and Dark Mind now being usable on trash, it absolutely doesn't lack in tanking tools. Once you get TBN in the 70-81 level bracket DRK is more durable than GNB or PLD, putting TBN at level 50-60 would make those tanks feel abysmal by comparison.

Let's take a step back a little here, as I've actually said they should likely hard nerf Raw Int, inside of AOE situations because it's just broken to the point it takes gameplay away from healers, No Job should have a benediction on a 25s CD that lasts three hits, even if it's only AOE. I think Warrior is actually bad for balance, my main point was if war (and pld) can have their short mits eariler I don't see the harm in other tanks having mits eariler, I would even say a nerfed version of TBN but that would be hard to implement with how it works currently.

I mean I would agree PLD feels VERY Miserable until much later in it's levelling experience, I'd advocate for moving up magic attacks and some sustain such a HS regen but halved to standard sheltron so PLD feels better in general. I think PLD is way more rotationally miserable, its mitigations become fine if you have some small amount of sustain. PLD's the worst example of a how a job should work in ARR-HW, It's always been my go to example of why we should move down some skills because PLD feels like some weird gladiator that has nothing to do with white magic until way too late.

Adding TBN early wouldn't really break the game, I also think Heart of stone should be 10 levels lower, Tanks in general having their short more reactive mits makes them more fun for early content which is what I mostly care about, If you have to slightly adjust somethings for DRK such as maybe Abyssal Drain is way weaker until other tanks get a bunch of extra sustain then so be it, that's fine with me, I just would like to press my short mitigation buttons at lower levels, I don't mind if tanks are overall still nerfed or tuned down to make that more feasible.

[Terhix]

Let's take a step back a little here, as I've actually said they should likely hard nerf Raw Int, inside of AOE situations because it's just broken to the point it takes gameplay away from healers, No Job should have a benediction on a 25s CD that lasts three hits, even if it's only AOE.

Agreed, though I do think it's worth pointing out that Abyssal Drain is also a free bene (especially at lower level with how healing potency scales relative to max HP), just with a 1min cooldown, and DRK gets it at the same level WAR gets RI.

I think Warrior is actually bad for balance, my main point was if war (and pld) can have their short mits eariler I don't see the harm in other tanks having mits eariler, I would even say a nerfed version of TBN but that would be hard to implement with how it works currently.

It would have to be a heavily nerfed version of TBN given how weak (non-Holy) Sheltron is compared to TBN.

I do agree SE should have a look at how tanks play at lower levels, but that's a broader problem of just most if not all jobs having really weird progression at low levels. That's really out of the scope of whether DRK is somehow inherently worse than other tanks while leveling - it's not, except for Warrior, but all tanks are just worse than Warrior in dungeons once RI comes online.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...]but all tanks are just worse than Warrior in dungeons once RI comes online.

*something something* "Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting would still be fine if it only triggered once per weaponskill because that's still a net 1200 / 2000 heal potency on top of some extra mitigation".

Equilibrium is considered based and everything for how much it heals on a 60s CD, Raw Int / BW would be virtually the same but on a shorter CD. It would also actually benefit from stacking the recovery bonuses of Rampart & Thrill of Battle for itself in dungeon packs.

[Terhix]

*something something* "Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting would still be fine if it only triggered once per weaponskill because that's still a net 1200 / 2000 heal potency on top of some extra mitigation".

I'm pretty sure I'm on the record on these forums advocating for this exact change, so yes.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I'm pretty sure I'm on the record on these forums advocating for this exact change, so yes.

Oh I meant no offense either way - just voiced my own opinion on the matter.

[Rithy255]

While other jobs are really detached from MSQ and their own job quest, Dark Knight is very heavy on the lore and story section. The whole Heavenward expansion is a huge Dark Knight story. It's whole philosophy is based on the idea of fighting, judging and punishment evil people who will never face justice because they're the ones pulling the strings of society, and what happens in the end? We fight, judge and punish the leadership of Ishgard.

Summarizing, if it were any other job or skill, I'd agree with you, but TBN is so intricically connected to the job quest, I think it's insane to ask for TBN to be acquired earlier.

Maybe a weaker version of TBN would be cool.

understandable that you would like TBN to be kept at 70 because you find it cool and its a part of the lore, I just don't think changing it would takeaway from the story anyway and I think gameplay is more important, sorry if my post came across and obnoxious I just wish it was a eariler skill.

My main concern about TBN being early but weaker is the simple fact that it can be seen as a downgrade if it becomes harder to POP due to MP being tied to TBN unlike other short mits that can be changed around. I don't think dark knight players want the risk factor to be took away, Im personally not bothered eitherway but its a very contentious topic.

Agreed, though I do think it's worth pointing out that Abyssal Drain is also a free bene (especially at lower level with how healing potency scales relative to max HP), just with a 1min cooldown, and DRK gets it at the same level WAR gets RI.



It would have to be a heavily nerfed version of TBN given how weak (non-Holy) Sheltron is compared to TBN.

I do agree SE should have a look at how tanks play at lower levels, but that's a broader problem of just most if not all jobs having really weird progression at low levels. That's really out of the scope of whether DRK is somehow inherently worse than other tanks while leveling - it's not, except for Warrior, but all tanks are just worse than Warrior in dungeons once RI comes online.

Yeah Tanks and other in jobs REALLY need to be looked at lower levels, Im sick of being synched to 50 and having half a job, a big portion of what I liked about the job is just not there.

I think two things need to happen with tanks Warrior's Sustain mostly in AOE needs to be more toned down, we need to considering switching where important skills such as short CD's go and some key rotational aspects Tanks being more inline with each other not inline with current warrior is objectively what should happen, I don't want Holy circle and Confiteor combo to aoe heal me on PLD that would just make tanking insanely boring on PLD.