Tillana should not give 50 Gauge.

[HyperiusUltima]

Played DNC for a while this expansion, and my biggest gripe with it is literally Tillana. When you know your friends in a 8-man are mashing buttons? I see that gauge go from 0 to 100 pretty darn fast. Tillana is a great ability to use since it's one of our big hitters next to enhanced Standard, Saber Dance, and Starfall.

The issue is that DNC gets too much Gauge to even manage, and if they're full? All that extra Gauge goes to waste, including procs from allies during the 2m window.

There's a good way to fix it without destroying the buff cap that's already there(which tbh the Devs should REALLY take a look at expanding): Turn Tech Step into a Combo that doesn't break. Tech Step changes to Tillana(no Gauge added), changes into Dance of the Dawn. Easy enough so that DNC can actually manage their gauge because there's already plenty of that from their basic GCDs as is alongside utilizing Last Dance.

The "Feast or Famine" design in DNC is really what causes problems with Tillana's Gauge increase in the first place, so by making it a complete combo utilizing the new systems involved that change Actions, it makes it a lot easier and leaves Saber to be used for Gauge only or to dump in burst.

[Valence]

It's annoying and something that's been wildly criticized, but on the other hand you can also wait to clear your gauge enough before using Tilana. I like priorities and having to triage the gauge on jobs, and BRD is the only other job that still somewhat allows this a little. I'd hate to see more of it gone for the sake of simplicity.

[Carighan]

Yeah this isn't really a problem I see. You aren't forced to use Tillana on a specific GCD, you can swap it with a sd first to spend 50 before regaining 50, then sd again to remove the 50 again.

[NightHour]

Yeah this isn't really a problem I see. You aren't forced to use Tillana on a specific GCD, you can swap it with a sd first to spend 50 before regaining 50, then sd again to remove the 50 again.

It can be a problem in a competent group.

If you delay Tillana too long, you may drift it outside of buffs and you want it in buffs.


The nature of Esprit being random procs from each raid members attacks or spells means you can literally go from 0 to 50 gauge in an instant and it's super frustrating to do that as you press tillana and you overcap because of RNG gauge generation.

I've had plenty of situations in Savage and FRU where I've pressed Tillana and in the brief moment it takes the server to register the hit, my gauge jumped above 50 causing an overcap.


I suggest one of the following changes to address this


1. Tillana no longer grants 50 Gauge and Dance of the Dawn Ready also removes the Esprit cost from Dance of the Dawn.
2. Esprit Cap is doubled while under the effect of Technical Finish.

[HyperiusUltima]

Yeah this isn't really a problem I see. You aren't forced to use Tillana on a specific GCD, you can swap it with a sd first to spend 50 before regaining 50, then sd again to remove the 50 again.

Yeah, but when in an 8-man group Tillana is your strongest GCD after Dance of the Dawn and while Standard is on CD buffed by Flourish. This creates a problem because even if the difference is 600 vs 540, that's still a loss of 540 if you overcap since it's in dividends of 50. In 8-man I'm literally talking from experience seeing my gauge go from 0 to 100 and it feels bad that I'm wasting Gauge when pressing Tillana - no other job has this problem, and if somebody is going to say "SAM has this issue" then maybe take a look at high-end SAMs and how they manage their Kenki(which, honestly, is a REALLY feel-good mechanic when you're managing your gauge properly on SAM).

DNC shouldn't have to deal with a button that fights against its own Buff. It's like how MCH AoE fights against itself during Hypercharge and needs fixing.

[HyperiusUltima]

2. Esprit Cap is doubled while under the effect of Technical Finish.

This might be a solution to the Overcapping issue since GNB recently had their problems alleved in their rotation with potential overcapping. Have it just naturally go up to 200 instead of 100 just ensures you're throwing at least 4 Sabers, even when you're given Famine(yes, it has happened where I've gotten literally only 2 Sabers off during Technical in 8-man which is really bad luck). It might help stabilize some of DNC's damage rubberbanding it does during burst too, since this means you'd rather keep at least 100 for guaranteed 2 Sabers, and depending on RNG you can actually feasibly fit Tillana in there within the 10 GCDs given.

[Valence]

It can be a problem in a competent group.

If you delay Tillana too long, you may drift it outside of buffs and you want it in buffs.


The nature of Esprit being random procs from each raid members attacks or spells means you can literally go from 0 to 50 gauge in an instant and it's super frustrating to do that as you press tillana and you overcap because of RNG gauge generation.

I've had plenty of situations in Savage and FRU where I've pressed Tillana and in the brief moment it takes the server to register the hit, my gauge jumped above 50 causing an overcap.


I suggest one of the following changes to address this


1. Tillana no longer grants 50 Gauge and Dance of the Dawn Ready also removes the Esprit cost from Dance of the Dawn.
2. Esprit Cap is doubled while under the effect of Technical Finish.

I agree overall with your assessment that under especially good burst rng you can constantly have the gauge give you enough for Sabre 3 or 4 times which will fill up the burst pretty heavily while you still need to use your biggest nukes (Starfall, 1x Last Dance, Finishing Move).
I do not agree with those solutions at all because of the reasons I mentioned above. It waters all decision making down to nothing beyond "use shit whenever you want". It's the exact same problem some other jobs have complained to death about when specific gauge constraints have been removed.

I'm ready to admit I'm not sure how I'd solve the issue, but I do not want to see the job go through the same sandpaper treatment than others have. I've lost track of what Samurai does with its gauge during bursts, perhaps there is ideas to be taken there?

[HyperiusUltima]

I agree overall with your assessment that under especially good burst rng you can constantly have the gauge give you enough for Sabre 3 or 4 times which will fill up the burst pretty heavily while you still need to use your biggest nukes (Starfall, 1x Last Dance, Finishing Move).
I do not agree with those solutions at all because of the reasons I mentioned above. It waters all decision making down to nothing beyond "use shit whenever you want". It's the exact same problem some other jobs have complained to death about when specific gauge constraints have been removed.

To be fair Last Dance is the same Potency as Saber, so it's technically just insurance compared to Gauge since they're both 540. Still, you're spending 2 GCDs on Finishing Move and Starfall as you said. That leaves 7 more GCDs to fill after using at least 1 Dance of the Dawn, which is either your Filler Procs or more Saber.

In regards to decision making on DNC...there really is not many decisions to be made at all exempting Gauge Management. It's not that complex like SAM is when it comes to deciding what to do with your Gauge since with SAM you're keeping in mind the same thing except more controlled since SAM generates gauge off its attacks, not some other person that's giving you RNG procs. That's what makes the job feel good when you're using it properly and provides a level of skill expression.

If anything the only real decisions on DNC are Mits, Curing Waltz Timing, and when to spend Gauge to make room for more gauge. Other than that? Stare at timers, manage Feathers as they come - that's it. There's not a lot there to bother with unless your raid starts eating and giving you a ton of gauge in one GCD roll(anywhere from 0-70). This is why Tillana feels bad. DNC has no control over their own gauge, and thus Tillana being 600 + 50 Gauge is bad design because they don't have the same level of control other jobs do. That's where your argument falls apart.

Saying that we shouldn't change it because of 'simplicity' isn't real when the job itself is already simple as is and your only depth is gauge management, CDs and Procs. Feathers are manageable. Partner is not and neither is Technical and it's why fixed values don't work very well with an RNG-based job because it becomes chaotic. Recently when I was doing the current EX I literally could not use any more gauge than was coming in the entire Technical Buff: That's where I was forced to burn Tillana and lose out on that 50 because I had too much being genned from my 7 other raid members. It has to work in Feast as much as it does Famine to function, otherwise you're just losing value.

[NightHour]

To be fair Last Dance is the same Potency as Saber, so it's technically just insurance compared to Gauge since they're both 540. Still, you're spending 2 GCDs on Finishing Move and Starfall as you said. That leaves 7 more GCDs to fill after using at least 1 Dance of the Dawn, which is either your Filler Procs or more Saber.

In regards to decision making on DNC...there really is not many decisions to be made at all exempting Gauge Management. It's not that complex like SAM is when it comes to deciding what to do with your Gauge since with SAM you're keeping in mind the same thing except more controlled since SAM generates gauge off its attacks, not some other person that's giving you RNG procs. That's what makes the job feel good when you're using it properly and provides a level of skill expression.

If anything the only real decisions on DNC are Mits, Curing Waltz Timing, and when to spend Gauge to make room for more gauge. Other than that? Stare at timers, manage Feathers as they come - that's it. There's not a lot there to bother with unless your raid starts eating and giving you a ton of gauge in one GCD roll(anywhere from 0-70). This is why Tillana feels bad. DNC has no control over their own gauge, and thus Tillana being 600 + 50 Gauge is bad design because they don't have the same level of control other jobs do. That's where your argument falls apart.

Saying that we shouldn't change it because of 'simplicity' isn't real when the job itself is already simple as is and your only depth is gauge management, CDs and Procs. Feathers are manageable. Partner is not and neither is Technical and it's why fixed values don't work very well with an RNG-based job because it becomes chaotic. Recently when I was doing the current EX I literally could not use any more gauge than was coming in the entire Technical Buff: That's where I was forced to burn Tillana and lose out on that 50 because I had too much being genned from my 7 other raid members. It has to work in Feast as much as it does Famine to function, otherwise you're just losing value.

They took away MCH's Barrel Stabilizer and RPR's Plentiful Harvest granting 50 gauge in DT only to decide..


"Lets give the mechanic we removed from MCH and RPR to DNC!"

[Valence]

To be fair Last Dance is the same Potency as Saber, so it's technically just insurance compared to Gauge since they're both 540. Still, you're spending 2 GCDs on Finishing Move and Starfall as you said. That leaves 7 more GCDs to fill after using at least 1 Dance of the Dawn, which is either your Filler Procs or more Saber.

In regards to decision making on DNC...there really is not many decisions to be made at all exempting Gauge Management. It's not that complex like SAM is when it comes to deciding what to do with your Gauge since with SAM you're keeping in mind the same thing except more controlled since SAM generates gauge off its attacks, not some other person that's giving you RNG procs. That's what makes the job feel good when you're using it properly and provides a level of skill expression.

If anything the only real decisions on DNC are Mits, Curing Waltz Timing, and when to spend Gauge to make room for more gauge. Other than that? Stare at timers, manage Feathers as they come - that's it. There's not a lot there to bother with unless your raid starts eating and giving you a ton of gauge in one GCD roll(anywhere from 0-70). This is why Tillana feels bad. DNC has no control over their own gauge, and thus Tillana being 600 + 50 Gauge is bad design because they don't have the same level of control other jobs do. That's where your argument falls apart.

Saying that we shouldn't change it because of 'simplicity' isn't real when the job itself is already simple as is and your only depth is gauge management, CDs and Procs. Feathers are manageable. Partner is not and neither is Technical and it's why fixed values don't work very well with an RNG-based job because it becomes chaotic. Recently when I was doing the current EX I literally could not use any more gauge than was coming in the entire Technical Buff: That's where I was forced to burn Tillana and lose out on that 50 because I had too much being genned from my 7 other raid members. It has to work in Feast as much as it does Famine to function, otherwise you're just losing value.

You still have to use at least the Last Dance you'll generate prior to enter the burst (from Standard Step), else it'll get overwritten by Finishing. It's only the second one you'll get from Finishing that you can afford to drift outside of the window if you get enough Sabre.

I know there isn't many decisions to be made it's been whittled down expansion after expansion with the introduction of more nukes that have zero consideration beyond just using their button on CD (Last Dance, Finishing, Starfall, DotD), and it's been the same with BRD (Blast Arrow, Resonant, Encore). The bursts of those two jobs used to be a lot more priority based than they are now, unfortunately - with pre SHB MCH. I don't want to make them even less so, especially since I do consider this to be an identity marker of the rphys role (at least it used to be until they butchered MCH). Generally it's always been a combination of rng procs, overwriting, and gauge that defines those bursts as non static, and they're the only two jobs like that as far as I know.

SAM is different because SAM is a fixed rotation with no rng and no partner procs, even if it can vary if you're not having full uptime.

DNC used to have decision making in ShB with a lot of proc overwriting because Flourish procs wouldn't stack with normal procs, which required to keep enough gauge for Sabre to soak up potential procs the GCD before using Flourish. It also had AoE procs to use during burst because they were actually a gain to use on single target. It also had to balance this out with Sabre during the burst, because entering burst with a lot of gauge would give you the best bang for your buck, but you'd also perhaps would have used a lot of it before not to waste Flourish procs. There was a surprising amount of decision making on the fly.
EW removed all of this when they decided to do away with proc overwriting, which is fair, but it also didn't replace it with anything interesting, and Tillana didn't even give 50 gauge either, while it added all those 2 min nukes to use in the burst instead of AoEs that were entirely removed from any single target considerations.
If anything, DT actually re-added a modicum of decision making with Tillana even though it added yet another static nuke to the burst (DotD).

This is why my argument specifically doesn't fall apart. You're trying to tear down the little that DT re-added to decision making and I cannot abide by this, gauge overcapping or not.

Now you can even math it out. Realistically the problem arises when you generate 100 gauge or more under 2 GCDs (50+ gauge per GCD on average over multiple GCDs) and this keeps happening enough until your burst window runs out.
- If you do not overcap any gauge but Tillana moves out, you lose 60 potency in the window.
- If you do overcap, you lose 54 potency per 10 gauge accrued. Overcapping by 10 is therefore a difference of 6 potency, while overcapping by any other amount is a complete loss.
-> This means that you need to prioritize Sabre over Tillana. This is the exact same principle than BRD with Pitch Perfect overcap, you don't want it to overcap and you'll use the lower potency 2 stacks prior to any Empyreal, period. This is part of the job mechanics, and saying that it feels bad to me is just a matter of perspective. To me it feels actually good because when I make the correct decision I know that I maximized what the job mechanics allow me to do. Using Tillana outside of the burst window isn't gross, it just means your burst window already had a crazy good rng. If anything, the real culprit is the addition of way too many braindead 2min nukes that bloat the burst and compete for slots.

Now then, if you tell me that you can overcap by OVER 100 under 2 GCDs, maybe, and that I could consider to be a problem because technically it can happen. This means that no matter what you do, even with Tillana out of the picture, you can't spend gauge fast enough with Sabre to offset the gains.
I do not know how much this happens mathematically though. You need over 5 party members to generate esprit and then do it again the next GCD (although some also have faster GCDs), provided you're using nukes and not esprit generating moves like your filler. Through binomial probabilities, chances to get 4 esprit procs under a GCD from party members is about 4.5%, and 5 is 0.9% (with a rough average of 20% generation per job and 30% from the DNC iirc)? This drops to ridiculous levels for 16 trials over 2 GCDs (10 procs < 0.05%) Check with the Balance/AS tbh they probably have their models better established than this napkin math.

So far I do think that when people overcap, that's in most cases because they fucked up somewhere. The "conflict" happens from doing everything correctly when having enough Sabre to fill up all remaining slots of the burst without overcapping AND pushing Tillana out. But as said above, this means your burst was crazy good already and you prioritizing Sabre over Tillana was a gain and most likely optimal due to avoiding overcaps. Remember pre EW BRD? The amount of overcapping from rng spikes was completely crazy and imo that was fine as well, because the spikes felt good and you tried to make the most out of it. Was I complaining in AoE situations because I was generating more procs than I could spend? Not really, it was hilariously fun.

Using the argument that the job is already simple so we can sandpaper it further is completely crazy to me.