Bring difficulty back to job rotations, not just boss mechanics.

[Valence]

Not to defend it but walking casts can be canceled by jumping, last I checked.

Jumping doesn't cancel them no. They can be canceled by pressing escape, but like all casts this stops being a thing halfway through because past a certain time into the cast you enter slidecasting territory, which works for normal casts because you can move freely, but for walked casts you keep the mobilty debuff until the end.

[Azurarok]

Jumping doesn't cancel them no. They can be canceled by pressing escape, but like all casts this stops being a thing halfway through because past a certain time into the cast you enter slidecasting territory, which works for normal casts because you can move freely, but for walked casts you keep the mobilty debuff until the end.

Just checked, that only works for controller. The jump button (triangle) does the same thing escape would there.

But yes technically it can be canceled. That's all I wanted to point out.

[Kozh]

Nice of you to be willing to give up a main job and switch, but I'm not so eager, especially when no is willing to provide me an alternative range job to make up for what's being taken away. You're 1-for-1 on healers, I'm down to 0 on that DPS type.

So basically you just admitted you're being selfish even if the change won't impact you entirely.

[Shistar]

So basically you just admitted you're being selfish even if the change won't impact you entirely.

I'm afraid that was rather obvious from the start...

[Xieldras]

Have its own playstyle by making it into another caster? I'm confused but... why?

Admittedly I arrived at the tail-end of HW, so I only got to dabble a bit with the 2 ranged classes before picking Bard and going into StB. I enjoyed MCH's ammo system with the old overheat mechanic the most, but the current free-range direction of all rDPS classes is for the best. In the end, I believe a return to the old complexity could be good but the movement is definitely a "don't touch this". Though I'm aware I'm not a MCH main, so I won't throw my hat into the ring for that anymore.

TLDR: sifting through what to keep in the job kit and what to ditch.

[Absurdity]

Now, that's something I'd like to see them pull off...

They can clearly do it. "Summoning" your mount now works while moving and doesn't slow you down either.

[Azurarok]

As far as I can tell the main thing running casts offer is limiting weave windows, which they already do by having a follow-up oGCD to a GCD like the titan clap or continuation or uncoiled fury, though those can offer a little more flexibility by letting you use either weave window.

Now if they let you command pet units (turrets) while casting that could get more interesting.

[ForsakenRoe]

And of course I'm not going to say all healers should be made brain dead, I supported the healer strike for a reason. I will say though it would probably be necessary to make one of the regen healers simple so there's a choice regardless of the kind of healer one wants to be.

But then that also means making 2 tanks simple, 1-2 range simple, 2 casters simple, and 1 each of striking/maiming/scouting. There can be an (almost) even split of simple versus complex jobs, but the uproar and arguments are always going to be about which ones get to be which, hence why there's been this back and forth on just MCH alone because none of us want the same thing for it.

Hell, assuming the 2 complex casters end up being SMN & RDM, the 1 complex scouting is NIN, and the 1 complex maiming being either job, plus MCH being the complex ranged... I would lose 5 out of 6 jobs while getting nothing in return. Not sure how that's supposed to be a fair trade at all, or how anyone thinks that would incentivize people to stay if their job ended up in the simple or complex half of the split if that's not what they wanted.

This is, once again, assuming that 'job is simple/accessible for newer/less hardcore players' and 'job is complex/has optimization depth for hardcore players/people who are heavily invested in funny numbers', are mutually exclusive.

They are not.

We can very much have rotations where a casual player finds it easy to get into, and can clear content, while still having tools for optimization-minded players to optimize around. We had this in Heavensward and Stormblood. We did not need, as a SCH, to perfectly juggle our FOUR individual DOT timers. We did not, as a DRK, need to have perfect MP regulation to optimize Darkside. In fact, in most of the game's content, we did not need to even activate Darkside.

The only obstacle to having jobs that are simultaneously simple on the surface, and easily approachable for people picking them up for the first time, while also hiding a deep lake of complexity to learn and optimize, allowing for a feeling of 'mastery' in the player as they play more and more as that Job... The only thing holding us back from that, is the mindset of the players themselves. This obsession with always dealing optimal damage, means that there cannot be the duality of 'simplicity on the surface, depth and complexity below the surface', because everyone is so hyperfocused on the optimal output/rotation of the Job, that the 'simple' is thought of as 'playing wrong' rather than just 'playing safe'.


I don't really want to see any job be adjusted to be 'the complex one in its role' for a few reasons: If, say, MCH becomes the complex one, first of all it'd alienate players who like it as it currently is. We who went through losing the version we enjoyed, probably shouldn't be perpetuating that same pain onto others. Wasn't that the point of SHB's story?

Secondly, there's nothing to determine which should be the simple and which should be the complex. Take Healers. SCH has had a history of being 'complex' due to its various... interactions (read: jank) between actions (IE Dissipation locks you out of Seraphism entirely, Seraphism does not lock you out of Dissipation, but using S>D means instantly overwriting Seraphism's duration). On the other hand, SGE is based on one of the strongest Magic using jobs in FF history, capable of casting any White or Black Magic with ease. So, it'd stand to reason that it too, would have some degree of complexity. So, which is to be the 'simple' Barrier Healer, and which the 'complex' one? While others might say one or the other, my personal take is that both should be both. That SCH and SGE are easy to pick up and play, even as a player who's never touched a Healer before, but both simultaneously have tools for the players who have mained them for years to utilize, to eke out a little bit more performance via their mastery of the Job's kit. The same applies to other roles. I don't think MCH should be the 'complex' one, or DNC the 'simple' one. I think both should be easily approachable for any player, while also having optimizations that can be made by skilled players.

Lastly, I would have concerns about the playerbase's reaction to jobs being 'forced' into a difficulty level. If MCH were made the 'complex' one in the PRanged role, and DNC the 'simple' one (example), we could see one of two things, or even both: MCH players getting chastised in PFs for playing something that is hard to optimize, and might be detrimental to progression speed (as was the stigma with BLMs for a time). And at the same time, DNCs getting criticized for playing the 'babby's first job for babies'. This also could lead to issues wherein some players would feel like 'well my job is more complex to optimize so it should do more damage' (we saw this when WHM was outpacing AST at the start of SHB). With the previous 'all are simple to pick up, but all have optimizations', as the quote goes, 'when everyone is more complex to optimize, then nobody is', and so 'one job has more damage because it's harder' would not be an argument worth listening to (though I assume some players would try to make it anyway)


The idea that you MUST do all possible optimizations, is what is removing the optimizations from the game, because some players simply do not have the skill level to pull it off, and SE would rather just remove the failure conditions, rather than reduce the punishment for those rotational failures. Which is hilarious, because forgetting to refresh your DOT as a Healer gets more and more punishing with every increase to the potency that they do to it. Doubling down more and more on the 2min meta with these followup burst attacks like Vice of Thorns, StarCross, Tenri Jindo etc, only makes misalignment even more punishing.

Here, quick example. By my estimates from looking at some logs, a WAR gets about 50% of their damage from Inner Release's 3 free Fell Cleaves, the Primal Rend/Ruination it triggers, and that one OGCD that you get after the 3 FCs, whatever it was called. So imagine a fight where the WAR is dead at the 1min mark so they cannot burst. They get up, say, 25s later. Their own burst is now misaligned from the rest of the party. If we assume a comp of VPR, MNK, MCH, BLM, a single 5% damage buff is present from the MNK. The WAR's 50% is increased to 52.5% when that 5% buff is applied. So, that death, not only sets the WAR back by 25% damage output for a bit due to Weakness, the misalignment costs them that potential 2.5% increase from every subsequent raidbuff window. By trying to simplify the game down to 'burst on time with everyone and do the majority of your Job's damage', SE has accidentally made 'miss the timing for your burst and you will be massively punished'

Also your assumptions in the final paragraph are funny to me, because RDM is arguably the most complex to optimize of the four Casters now that BLM got heavily adjusted, RPR still has the issue of being weirdly damage-neutral over its 2min loop (so any disruptions, including pressing Harvest Moon, potentially throw its burst into disarray), and NIN is very evidently 'more complex to optimize' than VPR. But that's the point I try to make: RDM is the more complex Caster to optimize, yes, but you can still play it at a casual level and have fun with it. You do not instantly drop dead (ingame) if you don't do a perfectly optimal Dokumori window as NIN. You do not instantly wipe because you did a single Communio in your burst window as RPR instead of Double Communio.

[Xieldras]

The whole "slider of difficulty" was brought on by SE's balancing itself once Roles appeared. I understand wanting an easy job to get into for your newbies, but I'd argue that they will connect more with a specific gameplay loop for one job and work with that.

[Azurarok]

The whole "slider of difficulty" was brought on by SE's balancing itself once Roles appeared. I understand wanting an easy job to get into for your newbies, but I'd argue that they will connect more with a specific gameplay loop for one job and work with that.

Also the leveling process should be doing the easing to get newbies in, not the process of switching from the easy job to a hard one. Low floor jobs should still exist, but none of them really need to be beginner-friendly at max level