yoshi what are you doing to steel cyclone ):?

[Gennosuke]

'Balance' is a PLD buff, not an anything nerf.

Keep it together, ladies.

Buff is needed at times, and nerf is needed at times.
If i assume blm is your current job, let us see SE buff up nuke dmg for whm to be higher than blm and then to 'balance' (following your logic..) have them boost blm even more instead of nerf whm down to what it should logically be at.

See the flaw in that logic?

The point here is War should not excel in both areas, regardless of whether you buff pld or not. It is not on par with other jobs as a 'package'.

[Krausus]

Buff is needed at times, and nerf is needed at times.
If i assume blm is your current job, let us see SE buff up nuke dmg for whm to be higher than blm and then to 'balance' (following your logic..) have them boost blm even more instead of nerf whm down to what it should logically be at.

See the flaw in that logic?

The point here is War should not excel in both areas, regardless of whether you buff pld or not. It is not on par with other jobs as a 'package'.

there is a flaw in your logic as well. WHM is not supposed to be a nuker WAR is supposed to be a tank

[yukikaze_yanagi]

'Balance' is a PLD buff, not an anything nerf.

Keep it together, ladies.

pld is getting buff
drg is getting buff
war is getting nerf AND buff

problems ? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post661877

[Gennosuke]

there is a flaw in your logic as well. WHM is not supposed to be a nuker WAR is supposed to be a tank

Actually, it seems you misinterpreted my logic. I was obviously advocating the nerf in this situation which in this case is a DD nerf, not a tank nerf. So i'm not sure why you're telling me War is supposed to be a tank. That's not specifically my issue here.

On another note, i could argue that Whm is supposed to be a nuker as well since it has nuke damage spells as well.

Again the point here is overall balance. Whm can nuke, but blm will obviously surpass when it comes to DD.
War on the other hand is a great DD, as well as a top tank.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the balance is broken here. Hence the countless people and threads popping up with complaints, all derived from this little equation here.

[Delsus]

'Balance' is a PLD buff, not an anything nerf.

Keep it together, ladies.

So you just want everything easymode? if they keep buffing for every inaballance we will be oneshotting every boss in the game. Nerfs are needed at times and yes WAR does need nerfing.

[Krausus]

Actually, it seems you misinterpreted my logic. I was obviously advocating the nerf in this situation which in this case is a DD nerf, not a tank nerf. So i'm not sure why you're telling me War is supposed to be a tank. That's not specifically my issue here.

On another note, i could argue that Whm is supposed to be a nuker as well since it has nuke damage spells as well.

Again the point here is overall balance. Whm can nuke, but blm will obviously surpass when it comes to DD.
War on the other hand is a great DD, as well as a top tank.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the balance is broken here. Hence the countless people and threads popping up with complaints, all derived from this little equation here.

no its not the same its hyperbole you cant compare WHM and BLM and WAR and PLD the roles are just way to different. If WHM DPSed as much as a BLM then a nerf is obviously needed because a WHM is not a DPS job. WAR is a DPS and tank job PLD is a Tank and healing job, they share a role which is tanking I dont know why people think one has to be better than the other when their differences is their secondary role which is DPS and healing. Issue is WAR is much better at their secondary role than PLD, buff PLD secondary remove the HP nerf and give them the +def they are supposed to have and things would be better off. I dont think the issue is WAR is to strong (maybe a little with steel cyclone low CD) the Issue IMO is they screwed up on PLD. Hell PLD barely resembles the description.

[Demoleon]

Steel Cyclone isn't necessarily the issue IMO. Sure it could definitely use a higher cooldown, but I think WARs most needed nerf is Rampage. Get rid of Rampage and just have Defender/Beserk.

As far as HP and Enmity go, PLD needs a HP buff and Enmity buff while WAR should get a Enmity debuff.

[Arcell]

Warrior is both a tanking job and a DPS job. I wouldn't say that Paladin is both a tanking job and a healing job. They've really only got Holy Succor and that's it for healing others, Paladin is solely a tanking job and it does not excel at that.

By the same notion, if any job could heal better than a White Mage there would be an uproar. Why? Because the only thing that White Mage excels at is healing, that is its sole role. This is why there is a problem with Paladin and Warrior. The only thing Paladin can excel at is the tanking role and Warrior beats the pants off of it in the tanking role.

For Paladin to be useful, it must excel at the tanking role more so than any other job because that is all it is made to do. Paladin should, at the very least, be the safe tank. Warrior can be used as tank to kill things faster but it should not have higher overall survivability than Paladin.

[Krausus]

Warrior is both a tanking job and a DPS job. I wouldn't say that Paladin is both a tanking job and a healing job. They've really only got Holy Succor and that's it for healing others, Paladin is solely a tanking job and it does not excel at that.

By the same notion, if any job could heal better than a White Mage there would be an uproar. Why? Because the only thing that White Mage excels at is healing, that is its sole role. This is why there is a problem with Paladin and Warrior. The only thing Paladin can excel at is the tanking role and Warrior beats the pants off of it in the tanking role.

For Paladin to be useful, it must excel at the tanking role more so than any other job because that is all it is made to do. Paladin should, at the very least, be the safe tank. Warrior can be used as tank to kill things faster but it should not have higher overall survivability than Paladin.

and that is the base issue I think is PLD survivability when I say secondary as healing I didnt necissarily mean healing others they need to be able to keep themselves more self survivable. the HP nerf was not a good idea and by definition alone PLD should have a lot higher defense than WAR, it would be nice if PLD also had a larger MP pool.

[Gennosuke]

no its not the same its hyperbole you cant compare WHM and BLM and WAR and PLD the roles are just way to different. If WHM DPSed as much as a BLM then a nerf is obviously needed because a WHM is not a DPS job.

This is not actually a whm/blm comparison to war/pld. The only reason i used Blm in my example is because the person i replied to has a thm class as main in his profile so i attempted to relate to that. Nevertheless, my point in that reply was more along the lines of what Delsus mentioned above. It was specifically against the idea of just buffing up other jobs instead of nerfing jobs where needed.

WAR is a DPS and tank job PLD is a Tank and healing job, they share a role which is tanking I dont know why people think one has to be better than the other when their differences is their secondary role which is DPS and healing. Issue is WAR is much better at their secondary role than PLD, buff PLD secondary remove the HP nerf and give them the +def they are supposed to have and things would be better off.

Ok, so Both War and Pld are intentionally designed as tanks primarily with a secondary role of DPS for War and Healer for Pld.

There are a few problems with this design when compared to the rest of the jobs and this is where the issue lies.

What exactly are the secondary roles of Mnk and Drg? How defined and how efficient are they? No one invites mnk or Drg with a secondary role in mind. They are simply seen as DD. If anything, you could say Evasion for mnk and TP for DRG eventually may translate into a better DPS outcome (whether thru bit more survivability or more WS).

For a melee, the 2 main areas (as of now atleast) that they fit into are tanking and DPS. Fortunately for war (and unfortunately for others), War excels in both. All the other melee really suck at any clear-cut defined secondary role, especially in the harder battles.

In this case, one of 2 solutions is required. Either War gets a nerf on the secondary role, i.e Dps nerf and becomes as crappy at that secondary role as the rest of the melee jobs are at their secondary role or.. all the other jobs get a big boost and well defined secondary roles that actually makes a real significant impact in any battle.
Trust me, i am more than happy going as a Monk evasion tank in an Ifrit battle but i don't see that happening anytime soon.

That is the whole idea of balance here. You can't equate Tank + DPS to any of the other puny combinations we have at the moment. Tanking and DPS'ing in the same time is overkill. This is what makes War problematic balance-wise and is the reason they're favoured in almost all situations.