So how is everyone feeling about Occult Crescent now that it’s been a few days?

[ForteNightshade]

Partial disagree on what was mandatory. In fact I have seen different setups in content and some actions were not always picked, namely things like manashift or even refresh (because MP stability was already fading in Stormblood by that point). There was also actually smart people not taking Protect on healers for the pitiful defense gain it gave, but unfortunately the community was so dented about protect that you'd get harassed by clueless dungeon runners whenever you wouldn't cast it at the start of a dungeon.

But it never felt like true customization precisely because it never really pushed the intricacies of the system. HW did it best by having those not role based but class adjacent based which made every job a lot more unique, but didn't have the "select your options among many" that SB had, and we could certainly have done with a lot of the utility abilities that were actually cross class back then like Second Wind or Bloodbath, which were not necessarily meta depending on the job so you could have had more wiggle room into choosing what suits your playstyle.

I've always seen the argument that having to level multiple classes to be a "good X or Y" was bad, but is that a bad thing in a game that's literally about leveling multiple classes? Is that a bad thing that someone that actually invests some time gets access to additional perks? It never prevented anybody to play a tank, a healer or whatever not to have leveled their crossclasses. In fact, this was only mandatory for high end raiding. The first extremes I did back then I didn't even have swiftcast as a healer. Someone told me I should consider it, but I've never been removed or anything for not having it. I mean, I could slow raise, it wasn't such a biggie. And that made me actually want to level other classes.

This is a little revisionist history. No one ever dropped Refresh because the Prange didn't really have anything beyond four abilities worth using. Bards also utilized Refresh as a core part of their damage rotation not to simply help healers maintain MP. In fact, that was secondary in higher end content and often led to conflict since you'd have healers spam GCDs heals, especially WHM, only to then complain the Bard wasn't using Refresh for them. Which is likely what contributed to the gradual decline in MP relevance and Refresh altogether.

Likewise, going back to Heavensward and the cross skill system. Tanks really had only one decision to make because Rampart, Provoke, Convalescence, Invigorate and Second Wind were all essentially mandatory. From there you picked some combination of Awareness or Bloodbath. DPS were not any better has you were always choosing Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Second Wind, Bloodbath and Invigorate. Goad was really the only ability swapped on the melee. Prange.

As for leveling other jobs, I have to disagree. Being forced to play a class you may not like isn't fun nor does it encourage people to learn how to play it. We see this even nowadays with leveling and how many people will queue into high level content without a clue what they're doing simply because they need to have all their jobs at max level. The game has never been about leveling multiple classes, but simply providing the option to do so all on one character should you choose. Which is why so many people disliked feeling forced to level other characters.

And in the case of tanks, you were essentially forced to level Gladiator because you needed Provoke. Nowadays you would get kicked for not having Swiftcast in EXs because there's quite literally zero reason not to. Back in ARR days, the game was new and people were still figuring out how to even do things.

[Ephremjlm]

This is a little revisionist history.

I think the biggest thing about this is not that the idea was bad, it was that the implementation was bad. Once again I have to reference FFXI because SE owns it, the game is still there, and the same team runs it. But leveling other jobs in that game was great for sub jobs. It WAS interesting. They made all jobs fun, gave them all unique utility, and it felt fulfilling when you were able to take abilities and stats from other jobs into your main. Why do we think people initially got SOOOO excited for the Phantom Job system when it was announced in Occult Crescent. Its basically the same thing, just a shorter time span for leveling.

I get what you're saying that it was annoying in FFXIV, but like anything we need to look at all the pieces and the context before we make any sweeping judgements. Its that same mindset that got us to the homogenized mess that we have today.

[Daralii]

I think the biggest thing about this is not that the idea was bad, it was that the implementation was bad. Once again I have to reference FFXI because SE owns it, the game is still there, and the same team runs it. But leveling other jobs in that game was great for sub jobs. It WAS interesting. They made all jobs fun, gave them all unique utility, and it felt fulfilling when you were able to take abilities and stats from other jobs into your main. Why do we think people initially got SOOOO excited for the Phantom Job system when it was announced in Occult Crescent. Its basically the same thing, just a shorter time span for leveling.

I get what you're saying that it was annoying in FFXIV, but I like anything we need to look at all the pieces and the context before we make any sweeping judgements. Its that same mindset that got us to the homogenized mess that we have today.

You can go even further back if you want. Mastering a job in FFV, the game they're pulling this shit from, let you carry over a skill from it to other jobs. Freelancer had the unique ability to utilize much more and equip any gear, so mastering other jobs eventually built it up to become extremely strong.

[Ephremjlm]

You can go even further back if you want. Mastering a job in FFV, the game they're pulling this shit from, let you carry over a skill from it to other jobs. Freelancer had the unique ability to utilize much more and equip any gear, so mastering other jobs eventually built it up to become extremely strong.

That's true

[Valence]

This is a little revisionist history. No one ever dropped Refresh because the Prange didn't really have anything beyond four abilities worth using. Bards also utilized Refresh as a core part of their damage rotation not to simply help healers maintain MP. In fact, that was secondary in higher end content and often led to conflict since you'd have healers spam GCDs heals, especially WHM, only to then complain the Bard wasn't using Refresh for them. Which is likely what contributed to the gradual decline in MP relevance and Refresh altogether.

Likewise, going back to Heavensward and the cross skill system. Tanks really had only one decision to make because Rampart, Provoke, Convalescence, Invigorate and Second Wind were all essentially mandatory. From there you picked some combination of Awareness or Bloodbath. DPS were not any better has you were always choosing Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Second Wind, Bloodbath and Invigorate. Goad was really the only ability swapped on the melee. Prange.

As for leveling other jobs, I have to disagree. Being forced to play a class you may not like isn't fun nor does it encourage people to learn how to play it. We see this even nowadays with leveling and how many people will queue into high level content without a clue what they're doing simply because they need to have all their jobs at max level. The game has never been about leveling multiple classes, but simply providing the option to do so all on one character should you choose. Which is why so many people disliked feeling forced to level other characters.

And in the case of tanks, you were essentially forced to level Gladiator because you needed Provoke. Nowadays you would get kicked for not having Swiftcast in EXs because there's quite literally zero reason not to. Back in ARR days, the game was new and people were still figuring out how to even do things.

Quoting counter examples doesn't make it revisionist because I could (and actually did) quote other examples that weren't always taken. You're even quoting counter examples to your points yourself. Whether it is Protect, Awareness, Bloodbath, Goad, even Feint or Fracture for some rotations (yes it was used as well), there were abilities that were not a full binary 100 to 0. You seem to go under the misconception that I'm saying that the system didn't have flaws, which has never been my intent. I actually believe I also said that there were definitely a lot of meta choices no matter what.
On Refresh actually , if my post history can show one thing, it's probably how I deeply miss resource management and party resource support that used to be core to rphys identity.

If people nowadays would get kicked for not having swiftcast, then I don't know what this game and community have become, truly. It's never been mandatory for anything at all, just in people's imagination. It's never been a problem of the community being new, you had people being rabid about optimization back then as you have today. If pantamelds weren't worth millions of investment today, you'd have everybody in extreme or savage literally kicking anybody without them week one. It's in reality a problem of effort and convenience of use, but I can definitely see the argument that feeling that you have to play a type of content or a class that you don't want to play, isn't necessarily good for the reasons you exposed. But you cannot deny my own experience, because it actually proved beneficial to me.

I honestly have a pretty neutral opinion on having to level other jobs or not though, because I can see the pros and cons about that. Ultimately it always boils down to: what manner of investment players can do to improve their build and class that would be tolerated, or what would not be? Getting benefits from another source of content would ultimately bring people up in arms because they would feel "forced" to play it to be optimal.